The Assembly met at 12:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Galw’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i drefn.

1. Statement on the Manchester Attack

First today, on behalf of all Members of this Assembly, I wish to express our heartfelt condolences to all those affected by the dreadful events in Manchester last night. Each and every one of us is shocked by what happened. I know that people the length and breadth of Wales, in all communities, will condemn this unforgivable act of violence and will provide all possible support to the authorities and people of Manchester as they come to terms with what has happened. I invite the First Minister to make a statement expressing his condolences.

Carwyn Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. You’ve spoken for all Members in expressing the complete solidarity of this Assembly and the Welsh people as a whole with the people of Manchester and all those families who are suffering today. This was a particular form of cruelty at work, because this act was directed towards teenagers coming out of a concert. It’s difficult to imagine an act more appalling and more senseless.Llywydd, fe fydd holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad a phobl Cymru i gyd eisiau sefyll ochr yn ochr gyda phobl Manceinion heddiw. Dyma’r math mwyaf creulon o derfysg, yn erbyn pobl ifanc yn eu harddegau mewn cyngerdd. Mae’n rhaid i ni i gyd sefyll yn gadarn gyda’n gilydd yn erbyn y math yma o greulondeb disynnwyr, anfoesol ac annealladwy. Llywydd, I pay tribute to the police, the ambulance service, the NHS in Manchester and all those in the city who opened their doors and reached out the hand of help when help was needed. Already we’ve seen countless stories of bravery, generosity and solidarity that show beyond doubt that the people of Manchester and this country will not bow to terrorism, and that hope, togetherness and unity will always beat hate and those who seek to divide us. Manchester is well known and well loved by very many Welsh people, especially those living in the north. It has seen terrorism before and I’ve no doubts about the resilience and strength of that great city. Llywydd, I have written both to the Prime Minister and the Mayor of Manchester, Andy Burnham, expressing our outrage at the attacks and offering our solidarity with the people of Manchester. I received a national security briefing from the Cabinet Office by phone this morning, and we will of course continue to monitor events as they develop. Priorities at this stage, however, must be to give families the support they need and allow the police the time and space required to conduct their fast-moving investigations without distraction. We must never get used to terrorism, at home or abroad. We can never accept these attacks as a fact of life. We should continue to call it what it is: alien, cruel and hateful. The message from this Chamber is that we will not be cowed, nor will we shrink into the shadows, and nor will we change our way of life. Llywydd, that is the best tribute that we can offer to the people of Manchester today.

I ask Members to stand for a minute’s silence.Gadewch i ni sefyll er cof.

Assembly Members stood for a minute’s silence.

Thank you.

2. 1. Tributes to Former First Minister Rhodri Morgan

My other sad task this afternoon is to mark the passing of the former First Minister of Wales, Rhodri Morgan, who died suddenly last Wednesday. Many of us have lost a friend, and Wales has lost a political giant, and we extend our condolences to our colleague, Julie, who has lost her life partner. I invite the First Minister to lead the tributes to Rhodri.

Carwyn Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can I begin by offering the sympathies of the whole Chamber to Julie and the family after the shocking news that they received. I’m sure all Members will want to join me in those sentiments. Last week there was a leader’s debate, which some of us took part in, in Penarth. When I left that debate, as soon as I left the chamber the debate had taken place in, I received the news that Rhodri had passed away. Hywel Rhodri Morgan was named after two kings, and he served in this place with distinction as First Minister for nearly 10 years. There are many of us who knew him, had the honour of knowing him, for many of those years, and we will all, I’m sure, in the course of the next hour or so, share some of the experiences, so many of them pleasant, all of them pleasant, that we had in his company.The first time I met him was in the summer of 1997 in the Metropole hotel in Llandrindod Wells. The ‘Yes for Wales’ campaign had organised a weekend event there to discuss campaigning for the forthcoming devolution referendum in the September of that year. I remember watching that evening a rugby match—USA versus Wales—with Rhodri and Kevin Brennan. Rhodri was a great sports fan, as we know, and I first had experience of the wit that he had, because the game was being played on what seemed to be a public park and, behind the posts, there were no terraces, no stands, but woodland, and Rhodri, in the course of the game, had to say, ‘I’ve never seen such a well camouflaged crowd’. I remember it was the first time I’d heard him speak and he then started to speak to me, and that’s the first time I had a conversation with him.He was very proud to have been First Secretary, as it was in 2000, and subsequently First Minister, a role, of course, he filled in every way in his time in that role. Llywydd, he was pretty much the same age as my father—10 months younger than my father—and I saw him very much as part of that generation. He was, to me, somebody who I saw as a father figure in politics. The phrase ‘father of the nation’ has been used, but certainly he was somebody who I very much looked up to. He was somebody who commanded such respect, but, of course, he was somebody who was down to earth.Fe ddywedaf i stori yn Gymraeg achos dim ond yn Gymraeg mae’n gweithio. Achos y ffaith bod Rhodri llawer yn henach na fi, roeddwn i’n wastod yn galw ‘chi’ arno fe. Ar ôl amser, fe ddywedodd e, ‘Grinda, fachgen’—roedd e wastad yn galw ‘bachgen’ arnaf i—‘mae’n rhaid i ti nawr alw “ti” arnaf i’. Roedd hi’n anodd, wrth gwrs, i’r rheini ohonom ni sy’n siarad Cymraeg, i newid yn y ffordd yna. Ond, dyna beth wnes i. Fe fues i’n siarad gyda fy mam-gu, a oedd yn fyw bryd hynny, ac fe ddywedais wrthi hi fy mod i’n galw ‘ti’ ar Rhodri. ‘Beth?’, meddai hi, ‘Beth? Ti’n galw “ti” ar Rhodri Morgan? Does dim parch ’da ti?’ Ie, wel, digon o barch, mae hynny’n siŵr. Ond, nid oedd gan Rhodri—ac rwy’n mynd i ddefnyddio’r gair sy’n cael ei ddefnyddio yn Nyffryn Aman a Chwm Tawe—nid oedd ‘clemau’ gyda fe; ‘airs and graces’ yw’r cyfieithiad neu’r dehongliad yn Saesneg. Rhodri was somebody who commanded great respect, but, for him, there was no ceremony, no airs and graces. What I am now as a politician I owe to him. He was the person who gave me my opportunity, in July 2000, to become Agriculture and Rural Development Secretary, as the title was then. These days, when we have Cabinet reshuffles, they take place on a pre-arranged schedule, they’re planned beforehand. He rang me at 10.30 p.m. on a Saturday night to tell me that I’d been promoted to the Cabinet and would I join him on the way to the Royal Welsh two days later. So, there was no notice given—that was the way that Rhodri was, ringing at that time on a Saturday night. Many of us will remember the foot and mouth crisis of 2001. Rhodri’s view was that, as a young Minister, I had to get on with it, that it was my responsibility, but he was there to give help and guidance and support if it was needed. But he never interfered. He let me learn, he let me deal with the situation, but he was there if I needed his advice, and I very much valued that. It was truly an honour for me, in December 2009, to succeed him.Rhodri was very much a family man. He delighted in his family. He delighted in his grandchildren. He spoke with much pride about all his family. For those who have been to his house, he had a set of rugby posts there and he had a copse where he’d often light little fires where people could gather. For him, family was everything. When he left active politics, he was determined to take up other interests that time had prevented him from doing in the years gone by. He started learning the piano. For those of us who remember him as First Minister, when he couldn’t turn a computer on, he became somebody who was a great technophile, and I used to pull his leg that pretty soon he’d be dominating Twitter. He loved his garden. He was a great gardener. Many people in this Chamber, and outside, will have the experience of going to Rhodri’s house and being presented quite often with a cabbage from the garden, fresh from the soil, often with the soil still on it, I remember, but he delighted in that. His pride in his garden was something that was obvious to all.He had a fantastic bank of knowledge about everything. It was amazing what he could recall. Particularly, he had an encyclopaedic knowledge of sport that went back to the 1940s. I often think that Rhodri would have been a fantastic pub quiz team companion, given his great knowledge on almost any subject. There was literally nothing I felt that he knew nothing about. He could always tell you something new about almost any subject. Rhodri was a hugely intelligent man with a fine mind, but he was at home with anybody. He had a remarkable talent for remembering people’s names. He would meet people 10 years on from their original, and perhaps only, meeting and he would remember their names and remember what they had said to him. How he did it, I don’t know, but it was incredible, and it was one of the things that he did and so many people remarked on that. It went so far in the public mind in associating him with being somebody who had a deep interest in other people. He was a great mixer and a great character, and he will be missed by his family, of course, but so many people around Wales and beyond.Yr wythnos diwethaf, fe gollom ni un o gewri’r genedl. Mae e wedi mynd, ond mae ei enw e, wrth gwrs, wedi’i ysgrifennu mewn i’n hanes. Last week, we lost one of our nation’s giants. He may be gone, but his name is written into our history.

I call on the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Could I begin by, obviously, passing on our deepest condolence to Julie, who joins us here today, and the rest of her family, who I believe are in the gallery, from the Conservative group and from my good self personally. I well remember the first time—and I made this comment last week— when I first met Rhodri and he was busily barricading his garden to try and stop my cattle going into his garden. I have to say, as a farmer, you normally get used to quite a few irate individuals when your cattle are doing a merry dance on their garden. Rhodri was more interested in what type of cattle they were, and the ultimate destination of where those cattle might be going. I think that well encapsulates who Rhodri Morgan was. He was a man who had a willingness to want to know, a thirst to understand, and, above all, he was a genuine, decent, upright individual. I had the real privilege to serve here in one term of this Assembly in 2007 to 2011, and, as a new Member, admittedly from another party, he always engaged, he always discussed things, and you always felt you had that sense of comradery with him. I feel deeply privileged to have been able to serve one term in this institution. The way that he conducted himself in the role of First Minister, as the First Minister has pointed out, he had huge pride in occupying that position and wanted this institution to succeed. We, as a country, owe him a great debt of gratitude for the way, as the former Presiding Officer has highlighted previously, he stabilised a ship, along with others, when this institution’s future wasn’t secured and there was a huge question mark. We are fortunate that he was there at the helm, working with others, to make sure that devolution did turn in to a permanent part of our democracy and permanent part of our country here in Wales. I well remember the times when he would be in here as First Minister, very often not quite on his own on the Government bench, but he would start First Minister’s questions quite happily standing there with a handful of colleagues around. It was a different time in those days, in 2007, 2008, and he would give you a very detailed answer. He would give you an answer that you might disagree with, but you understood where he was coming from and where the Government came from. The other thing that struck me, as a new Member to this institution, was, in particular, the way he engaged with the proceedings of the Assembly—how we would sit in Plenary here, with papers in front of him, working through those papers, and his House of Commons background would very often come out, because, all of a sudden, you’d think he wouldn’t be listening and all of a sudden there would be that barracking from the First Minister’s chair, which as a new Member you certainly felt a little deflated about, to be honest with you. [Laughter.] But most probably—from my perspective, anyway, as a young farmer, through their debating societies—I got used to that.I well remember, then, how he moved to the back benches, and I might be wrong, but I think he occupied the seat that Julie sits in today—perhaps Labour’s business manager could confirm that, but I think it’s roughly there. Again, he wasn’t a First Minister who just went to the back benches and sat quietly—he engaged, he had that thirst and he had that appetite for life that could be an inspiration to us all, I would suggest.I don’t for one minute profess to have been a friend of Rhodri, in the personal nature that many of the front bench here and the Labour benches will indicate, no doubt, in their tributes, but I feel hugely privileged, and I’m sure Members of my group feel hugely privileged, that we were able to call Rhodri a political friend and a political acquaintance. The First Minister touched on the point about how he would calm people when they met him, he would put them at their ease, and he always showed an interest in people by picking up their name.When I came home from the leader’s debate—and I am grateful to the First Minister who very kindly rang immediately after the First Minister’s debate to inform me of the tragic news, like I know he informed the other leaders—I was speaking to my wife afterwards, and she remembers a function that we attended. For most wives or husbands who are attending with their respective spouses in the political world, those types of events are very often regarded with horror, because you’re being thrown to the wolves very often. [Laughter.] Rhodri sat by Julia at this particular luncheon that we were attending, put her completely at her ease and was genuinely enthused by what she was doing, wanting to know about the things in life that she was interested in—likewise, obviously, Julia was asking him the questions back. But that was Rhodri—he could put you at your ease, he could understand what you were talking about and he could also offer you an answer and a perspective on life that encapsulated the man he was. He was just a thoroughly decent, honourable, upright individual. We are as a country extremely, extremely fortunate that we had a man of such calibre at the outset of devolution, taking the chair, steadying the ship and putting us on the journey we’re on.As I did when I opened my remarks, I close by again reinforcing our condolences to Julie and the rest of the family. The loss must be huge, but, hopefully, with the passage of time, the grief that you feel will be put to one side with the many happy and warm memories that you will have of, indeed, a great man.

I call on the leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. On behalf of Plaid Cymru, I’d like to express my condolences to Julie and the family, and to fellow party members, colleagues and everyone who knew Rhodri Morgan. I’m sure everyone who knew him had fond memories of him, not only as a leader of the country but as a person of kindness, humour and warmth. Many of us in this Chamber worked with him when he was First Minister. My memory is of a leader who was always willing to engage. He was quick thinking, he was a real character and he was a patriot. He was willing to listen to others whilst setting out his own view and his own vision for Wales.The phrase ‘man of the people’ is used a lot in politics, but with Rhodri it is well deserved. He was well known and popular with working people and with people outside of his own party. He was a politician who people could relate to. He had a dry and memorable sense of humour, but, beyond his personality, those people who were close to him can also be very proud of his political legacy.Rhodri Morgan led this nation in the early years of devolution—in those difficult precarious times. He formed the first coalition Government with the Liberal Democrats and later governed alongside my party in the One Wales Government from 2007 to 2011. Those were really important steps in the early years of our democracy.Rhodri proved that Wales could unite, that devolution could see multiple parties exercise political power and that we could all work together jointly. Through his tenure as First Minister of this nation he ensured that the foundations of devolution were cemented to ensure that it would outlast his time as First Minister.It was under his leadership of the country that this Assembly took its first steps away from Westminster in terms of public policy. Doing things differently in a unique Welsh way was part of Rhodri’s political mantra. He will be well remembered for his ‘clear red water’. Rhodri’s way struck a chord with people across all of the parties and none and resonated with those who had initially been sceptical about devolution. As Assembly Members, we still benefit from that legacy today. Without Rhodri Morgan, you could argue that we wouldn’t be on the cusp of assuming greater responsibilities as an institution. I’ll close my remarks with an observation. When asked in 2008 about this country’s greatest achievement since devolution, he answered that it was our growing sense of confidence and our willingness to make our own decisions. Without Rhodri Morgan Wales wouldn’t be the country that it is today. Diolch o galon, Rhodri Morgan. Cwsg mewn hedd.

I call on the leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I would like, on behalf of my group and my party, also to repeat the condolences, which have been given to Julie and other members of Rhodri’s family. I overlapped in the House of Commons with Rhodri for 10 years, from 1987 to 1997 and despite our political differences, Rhodri was an engaging and genial companion who always had time to talk. He was a gentle man and a gentleman. I warmed to him because it was immediately clear that, whilst fiercely loyal to his own party, he was always going to be his own man and a fully paid-up member of the awkward squad. Just as important, he was adamantine in his devotion to the fundamental decencies of life and politics. As a sincere person himself, he was always able to accept the sincerity of others. He bore no personal rancour towards anyone, even those whose opinions diverged radically from his. Unlike some, he never believed that democratic debate was improved by personal abuse and mud-slinging. He was broadminded enough to recognise that people can be equally sincere in their desire to do good even though they may differ fundamentally in their political prescriptions. He was part of that strand of socialist thinking, which in Morgan Phillips’s words owed more to Methodism than to Marx. But Rhodri was a nonconformist in a general sense: his unruly hair being a metaphor for his sturdy refusal to be controlled by anything other than his own conscience. His obituary in ‘The Daily Telegraph’ described him as ‘Off-message Labour MP…who defied Tony Blair to become First Minister’. And he was deeply disappointed in 1997 when Tony Blair failed to offer him a ministerial post. But in retrospect, he might have agreed that Blair did him a favour, as Martin Shipton has written:‘What it really amounted to was that Rhodri—while certainly no wild man of the left—was the antithesis of the technochratic type of politician that Blair favoured.’As a loyal party man he sublimated his personal disappointment and used the freedom of the backbenches to throw himself enthusiastically into the campaign for the establishment of this National Assembly. In consequence, he has been rightly dubbed as the father of Welsh devolution, not only for his role in the original referendum campaign but also his 10 years as First Minister. And he did as much as anyone to establish this Assembly as a permanent feature of Welsh life, confounding the initial scepticism of people like me. It may not be the strongest argument in his favour to say that without him I wouldn’t be here today, but who can deny that this forum for the vigorous clash of opinions will be his lasting memorial. In the Assembly election campaign last year, Rhodri and I made a tv programme for S4C, and like all men in their anecdotage we entertained each other with stories of the old days in the House of Commons and the characters who had crossed our paths. Always his own man, he announced his surprise decision to resign as First Minister on his seventieth birthday and he said, ‘There’s never a right time to go’— better not to outstay his welcome. Well, he may have been right about that then, but at only 77 years old this is certainly not the right time for him to go finally, and Wales is much the poorer for his untimely departure. As a selfless public servant he was universally respected across the political spectrum and loved as the warmest of human beings by legions of people he encountered in all walks of life. Dr Johnson said that‘In lapidary inscriptions a man is not upon oath.’ But I can truly say that Rhodri was one of the most admirable men I’ve had the pleasure to know in half a century of public life, and it’s an honour to walk in his shadow.

I now call on Kirsty Williams to speak on behalf of the Welsh Liberal Democrats.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. We will hear much today, I suspect, about Rhodri as one of the ‘gwerin’—one of us—and that is, was, indisputably true. But we must also recognise that he stood out and he stood taller than us as well—as a politician, as a leader, as a father figure and friend to those of us from the class of 1999 and in the communities across Wales. Now, many of the tributes have talked about his personality as being distinct from his skills as a politician. I think that they were very much one and the same. Robert Kennedy described politics as the most honourable profession. I know that Rhodri would have agreed—actually, second only perhaps to playing fly half for Wales—but to be a politician, committed to ideals and to values, and representing community and country is an honourable profession that one should not apologise for. There was great honour in the leadership that he brought to this place, and to the very notion of Welsh self-government. Those of us here back in those awkward few months and years of Welsh democracy, we will always remember and be thankful for the skill and the steadiness that he brought to this institution and to the role of First Minister. Those skills came from his very nature as a person. Everyone here will have a story or two, or three, or four, or five, about a Rhodri anecdote, but it will never be as many as the stories, facts and tales that Rhodri had about every village, town, rugby team, sporting occasion—he was always great company. He showed me great professional and personal kindness. As we’ve already heard, he was an intensely proud family man, but he was also interested in your family. He always had time to ask me about my girls, and just like Julia, my husband, Richard, is often a reluctant participant in some of the formal events in which I demand his presence. But Rhodri always had time for him, always wanting to know about the cattle and the lambing season. When my mother passed away, he wrote not only to me but he wrote to my late father. My father couldn’t believe that the First Minister of Wales had taken the time to write to him about his loss. He was a decent, decent man. On behalf of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, me personally and my family, my greatest sympathy, Julie, to you and to yours.

Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Rhodri was my friend, he was my leader when he was first Minister and he was also my constituent; we shared a great enthusiasm for the beautiful Vale of Glamorgan. And Rhodri always found time to campaign with me, but he also loved his local walks, swimming in the sea with Julie at Whitmore bay, and one memory from a friend this week of Rhodri spending time with her two young boys on Bendricks beach in Barry, entertaining them on the subject of dinosaur footprints—[Laughter.]—but most recently, enjoying the produce from his garden—Carwyn’s already mentioned it—a very special Spanish omelette made with the eggs from his latest batch of chickens bought at Riverside market. I also remembering visiting Dinas Powys Primary School on Fairtrade day and meeting Jaidem, Rhodri and Julie’s grandson. Now, Jaidem is a member of the school’s eco committee, and he was holding up this huge Fairtrade banana with his friends for the photos—very knowledgeable, of course, on Fairtrade issues.So, knowing Rhodri and Julie as close friends, with shared political commitments, does take me back a long time—it takes me back to the early 1980s when I visited him when he was head of the European office in Wales, and I was asking him for help with European funding for the South Glamorgan Women’s Workshop. Well, he set to work straightaway, secured the funding and that workshop opened in 1984, with a crèche, training women in IT skills and electronics—widely questioned at the time for being women-only. But, of course, Rhodri backed us all the way and 35 years later, thousands of women and children have benefited from that workshop. Always a champion for women’s rights; thank you, Rhodri.We worked together on the ‘Yes for Wales’ campaign, which took us both into the Assembly and into Government as ministerial colleagues. Within a year, he was First Minister for nearly a decade. Much has been made and said of Rhodri’s capacity to absorb detail, but it’s also very important to remember that he was always looking to the long term, to the big policy ideas that could move Wales forward. So, when I was health and social services Minister, he made it clear that he was as concerned with social services as he was with health, and with public health as much as the NHS. He ensured that we got the legislation to appoint the first Children’s Commissioner for Wales in 2001. Looked-after children in Voices from Care knew he was listening as he responded to the Waterhouse report. Of course, those were tough times in our early days, as has been said: £1.9 billion health budget compared with over £7 billion now. But, we didn’t do PFI, we brought in free prescriptions and Rhodri opened our prestigious Swansea graduate medical school—and how proud he was to be chancellor of Swansea University. He was passionate about our health service, supporting primary care, but also championing those outstanding scientists who put Wales at the forefront of medical research. The impact of his decision to appoint the chief scientific advisers for Wales has been so significant.Again, his contribution to education has been distinctive, backing the foundation phase, recognising the importance of investing in the early years, bringing higher education to the Valleys, and launching the transformational twenty-first century school building programme. Today, the horrific terror attack in Manchester is at the forefront of our thoughts, and we must remember Rhodri’s swift response, as First Minister, to 9/11 and 7/7, bringing together all the faith leaders in a forum to establish new relationships, which endure through thick and thin to this day. Julie and I attended a deeply moving gathering on Sunday at the Hindu community centre, with contributions from ethnic minority organisations and faith leaders—many are here today. The message was that Rhodri had reached out, he’d listened and he took action. Much has been said about Rhodri’s capacity and ability to relate to people every day, everywhere he went in Wales, but he was also a man who looked out to the wider world. Wales for Africa is a shining example of that, as we’ll see on Africa Day, celebrated in the Senedd this Thursday. So, Rhodri Morgan was a truly exceptional man who has made an indelible mark on Wales. He was a uniquely gifted politician with the greatest integrity and compassion. I’ve been so fortunate to know and work with him, as a truly inspiring leader who defined the meaning and importance of devolution for Wales, whilst crafting a distinctive identity for Welsh Labour. Now, we must learn together from his life, his legacy as a great and enduring friend to Wales. Diolch, Rhodri.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Extraordinary, inspirational, genuine, brilliant, original, unique: all adjectives that have been used to describe Rhodri in the hundreds of tributes I’ve read over the past few days, each one an accurate description of him. I met both Julie and Rhodri 20 years ago in the ‘Yes for Wales’ campaign. I then worked on Rhodri’s two leadership campaigns back in 1998 and 1999, the history of which is very well known. However, Rhodri absolutely believed his time would come, often quoting one of his beloved sporting analogies, ‘Three tries for a Welshman’, which indeed turned out to be the case. When he became First Minister in February 2000, he ensured devolution—still very much in its infancy—worked for everyone in Wales, by steadying the ship and providing exceptional leadership. Devolution will be his political legacy. Without him, it would have been a much more difficult journey. I was privileged to be elected by the people of Wrexham to serve under Rhodri in 2007. Rhodri and Julie really encouraged me to put myself forward to be an elected representative. So, I owe him a great deal and I will never forget his personal support and encouragement over the last two decades. I often sought his advice and wisdom, and I remember, during one particularly unpleasant day during an election campaign, when opponents were hurling personal insults, that he heard about this and rang me to tell me to rise above it and remember that politics was about playing the ball and not the man—yet another sporting analogy.Even though I am still shocked and saddened at his sudden death, it is not possible to think of Rhodri for long without remembering a story to make you smile. And there are so many of those stories to provide comfort at this time. On his many visits to Wrexham, he often called at my house to see us. One Sunday, he had been to meet with individuals affected by severe flooding and arrived hoping to have a roast Sunday lunch before heading home to south Wales. However, it was my daughter’s sixth birthday, so no Sunday lunch was on offer, just a chaotic house, and, typically, he rolled up his sleeves, helped prepare for the birthday party and cleaned the kitchen afterwards. Colleagues who were here pre 2011 will remember, as Carwyn said, that Rhodri chose never to switch his computer on whilst he was First Minister. Someone would do it for him and he simply pressed the buttons to vote. However, following his retirement as First Minister, he decided that he really needed to start sending e-mails. On the Friday after he stepped down, he e-mailed me congratulating me on my appointment as a Deputy Minister, telling me that this was the first e-mail he’d ever sent and I should treasure it.On our return after the Christmas recess, Rhodri sat directly behind me in the Chamber, and often used to ask me, in a very loud whisper, did I fancy a cuppa, much to the consternation of the then Presiding Officer. So, I decided to show him how to use the messaging system we have in the Chamber and he then decided that I should be his 24/7 ICT support—a job I was really happy to do, as it was the first thing I’d ever been able to do better than him. Rhodri was down to earth, with no airs and graces, truly a man of the people, and passionate about Wales and her people. It didn’t matter which village, town or city in Wales that you visited with him, he had an encyclopaedic knowledge of that place, and invariably spoke to people, finding a cousin or an old family friend. He made everyone feel comfortable and at ease and that’s why he was such a popular politician, known everywhere just by his first name. His loss is felt by so many people, which was emphasised to me on a visit to Wrexham Maelor Hospital last Thursday, when six people, none of whom I knew, just stopped me on the corridor to tell me that they felt they’d lost a friend, even though they’d never met him.It was a pleasure to be in his company and listen to his stories. He was always happy to share his vast wisdom and knowledge with you. I valued his friendship and will miss him greatly. But of course his top priority in life was his family, to whom he was devoted. Mine and my daughter’s thoughts are with Julie and all his family at this incredibly difficult time. Thank you for everything, Rhodri. Sleep well, comrade.

David Melding AC: As chair of the Welsh Conservative party group and the only Member first elected in 1999, it is my sad honour to make this tribute.Devolution was a shaky structure when Rhodri became First Minister in February 2000. Only narrowly endorsed by the electorate, it lacked decisive leadership and had not created a stable Government. Rhodri provided the energy and vision that devolution needed to succeed in Wales. He was a tough opponent, and I think we should be candid in recognising this. But, as was said of Churchill, any anger was like lightening—bright, decisive and quickly passing. While his powerful memory was rightly famous, it did not extend to bearing political grudges, and we all know what a rare quality and a generosity of heart that is. For the heart of Rhodri’s vision was that Wales must become a political nation to match and advance its cultural and historical achievements, and all our great political traditions have a part in that, which he nobly recognised.When Rhodri stepped down as First Minister, devolution was constitutionally embedded and about to receive a two-thirds majority in a referendum for primary law-making powers. Rhodri’s service to the Welsh nation will be seen as the greatest of his generation of politicians. And it was a service that was supported and sustained by a long and happy marriage. I extend my deepest sympathies and those of my colleagues to Julie and the whole family.

Mark Drakeford AC: I started to knock doors, persuading the citizens of Cardiff West to vote for Rhodri Morgan in the famous victory in 1987, when the constituency overturned the only aberration in its history to return to the hands of the Labour Party. I heard him speaking publicly for the last time just a fortnight ago, reliving the excitement of that campaign and the start of a 30-year relationship with communities across Cardiff West.Because, if the name of Rhodri Morgan was new to many in 1987, it didn’t stay like that for too long as he fought against the barrage; the response to the Ely riots, as they were described in 1990; in fighting against the quango state—the producer and director of that famous Welsh film, ‘Last Quango in Powys’, as I heard him refer to it so often. By 1992, what used to be a marginal seat was now firmly in the grasp of Rhodri Morgan. Not that that was the result of anything but hard work—the weekly surgeries, the public meetings, the community engagements. Perhaps he was becoming more prominent on the national stage, but wherever he was needed locally, Rhodri was there.Llywydd, yn y dyddiau hynny yn hanner cyntaf y 1990au, roedd Jane Hutt a minnau yn gynghorwyr sir dros ward Glan yr afon yng Ngorllewin Caerdydd. Sue Essex a Jane Davidson oedd cynghorwyr y ddinas dros ardal Glan yr Afon.Byddem yn cynnal cymorthfeydd stryd wythnosol, yn dosbarthu taflenni, gan ofyn i breswylwyr eu rhoi yn eu ffenestri os oeddent yn dymuno i ni alw.Unwaith bob mis neu ddau byddai Rhodri yn ymuno â ni.Byddem yn dosbarthu taflen arbennig yn hysbysebu presenoldeb yr Aelod Seneddol lleol.Yn hytrach na'r tair neu bedair taflen arferol, byddai dwsin o daflenni yn ffenestri pobl. Byddai Rhodri yn diflannu i’r tŷ cyntaf.Byddai Sue, Jane neu finnau yn mynd yn ein blaenau i alw ym mhob un o'r un ar ddeg tŷ arall, ac roedd pob un ohonyn nhw’n siomedig o’n gweld ni, a phob un ohonyn nhw’n gobeithio gweld Rhodri. Dri chwarter awr yn ddiweddarach, byddem yn dychwelyd i'r tŷ cyntaf.Dyna lle byddai Aelod Seneddol Gorllewin Caerdydd, plât o bice ar y maen, dau gwpanaid o de a thri chefnder cyffredin wedi eu darganfod.Roedden nhw’n meddwl ei fod yn wych.Ac wrth gwrs, roedden nhw’n iawn.Does dim syndod felly, erbyn adeg etholiad cyffredinol 1997 ac etholiadau cyntaf y Cynulliad yn 1999, fod pleidleiswyr Gorllewin Caerdydd wedi ailethol Rhodri Morgan gyda mwyafrif yr wyf yn cofio dweud wrtho ar y pryd y byddai Albania yn genfigennus ohono—un o'r ychydig wledydd yn Ewrop, nododd wedyn, lle nad oedd ganddo berthynas neu gysylltiadau gwleidyddol eisoes.Erbyn 2001, gyda chynrychiolaeth seneddol Gorllewin Caerdydd wedi ei throsglwyddo’n ddiogel i’w gyfaill agos a’i gynghorydd, Kevin Brennan, gŵr y gwn sydd yma y prynhawn yma, roedd Rhodri yn rhydd i ganolbwyntio ar gydbwyso dim ond y gofynion gwleidyddol o fod yn Brif Weinidog Cymru gyfan, a'r egni ffyrnig a roddai i gynrychioli unigolion a chymunedau yn ei etholaeth ei hun. Parhaodd y berthynas ymhell y tu hwnt i’w ymddeoliad ffurfiol yn 2011.Mae curo ar ddrysau yn ystod y dyddiau diwethaf yng Ngorllewin Caerdydd, Llywydd, wedi bod yn broses araf a phoenus.Roedd llawer o ddagrau, a llawer o chwerthin, wrth i gartref ar ôl cartref adrodd ei stori ei hun am Rhodri Morgan.Llywydd, oherwydd imi dreulio'r rhan fwyaf o ddegawd yn gweithio gyda nifer fach o bobl a oedd yn swyddfa’r Prif Weinidog—Lawrence Conway, Rose Stewart—yn ystod y blynyddoedd cyntaf hynny o ddatganoli, roeddwn i eisiau terfynu drwy ddweud rhywbeth yn fyr am amser Rhodri yn y swydd.Rydych chi wedi clywed y stori heddiw am y dyddiau cynnar anodd hynny, sut gwnaeth sefydlogi’r prosiect datganoli a'i osod ar y cwrs y bu arno byth ers hynny.Mae'n anodd ychwanegu rhywbeth newydd at yr hanes sylfaenol hwnnw. Ond yr hyn yr oeddwn i eisiau ei ddweud y prynhawn yma oedd hyn: o dan yr wyneb disglair, o dan y gallu hwnnw i siarad ag unrhyw un am unrhyw beth, roedd diben gwleidyddol hynod ddifrifol: creu’r sefydliad hwn, rhoi'r grym yn nwylo pobl Cymru i benderfynu ar faterion sy'n effeithio arnyn nhw yn unig, ymgorffori datganoli ym mhob rhan o Gymru.Dywedodd Rhodri y byddai’r Cadfridog de Gaulle yn cwyno ei bod hi’n amhosibl llywodraethu gwlad oedd â mwy na 2,000 o gawsiau, ac fe gafodd yntau’r holl bethau hynny’n hawdd.Yn fuan iawn byddai’r Senedd, fel y’i gelwid hi, yn Senedd yng ngwir ystyr y gair, yn sefydliad gyda phwerau deddfu llawn, gwahaniad priodol rhwng y Weithrediaeth a'r ddeddfwriaeth, ac, yn bennaf oll, lle diogel ym meddyliau a dyheadau dinasyddion Cymru: mor wahanol yw hyn i fis Mai 2000 yn nyddiau cynharaf Rhodri Morgan o fod yn Brif Weinidog, ac oherwydd mai Rhodri Morgan oedd y Prif Weinidog.Llywydd, mae datganoli yn brosiect nad oes ganddo hanes.Mae pob un ohonom ni sy’n rhan ohono wedi bod yn rhan o’i greu.Yn anochel, mae llawer o'r hyn yr ydym yn ei wynebu yn bethau yr ydym yn dod ar eu traws am y tro cyntaf.Mae colli cyn Brif Weinidog a chyfaill yn un o’r digwyddiadau hynny’n union. Mae'n ein cyffwrdd i’r byw ac rydym ni’n cael trafferth i ymateb.Ond fe allwn ni fod yn sicr o un peth: heb Rhodri Morgan, byddai’r siwrnai honno yr ydym i gyd wedi bod arni wedi bod yn wahanol iawn, ac yn llawer, llawer anoddach.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for the opportunity to pay tribute to Rhodri in the Senedd today, and, of course, in the presence of Julie, who formed such a strong partnership with Rhodri over so many years, in marriage and politically. It was a privilege, Llywydd, to serve with Rhodri in the Assembly, and indeed in Government, and I’m very grateful to Rhodri for giving me my first opportunities as a member of his Governments. To work with him was a pleasure. His commitment to socialism, Wales, and devolution, and his lively sense of humour, made it a great pleasure. I well remember, in his early days as First Secretary, Rhodri speaking at so many events in the Assembly, in the Bay, round and about, on a very wide variety of matters, and always displaying that breadth and depth of interest and knowledge that made, I think, all of us very proud that we had such a First Minister. And that was certainly well in evidence at an international gathering of leading figures that I recall in the Celtic Manor, when Rhodri gave a tour de force on the history and culture of Wales, and so many people came up to me and others from the Assembly afterwards and said that we must be very proud to have a leader with that depth of knowledge in terms of Wales’s history and culture. Accompanying Rhodri to visits in steel plants in Newport East was a very interesting experience. Everybody there, with decades of experience in the steel industry, was so impressed by Rhodri’s interest and his knowledge of industrial processes and products, and I know that wasn’t only true of the steel industry. It was true of so many visits to different sectors that made up, and make up, our economy in Wales. And when he occasionally came along to Newport Gwent Dragons’ rugby games—not when they were playing Cardiff Blues, but other opponents, such as Munster, that I remember—he was a huge hit on the terraces because of his passion, his very obvious passion, for rugby and, indeed, sport in general, and his vocal support and willingness to engage in banter around Cardiff Blues and Newport Gwent Dragons and their different merits and results and successes. And, of course, on the streets and doorsteps, Rhodri was just incredibly popular, and, as so many have already said today, and as has been said so many times outside this Chamber, he had such an entirely natural and genuine ability to relate to people from so many different backgrounds.Llywydd, I think it’s clear that Rhodri’s place in history is secure—getting the Assembly up and running and established, giving it credibility, profile and popularity, and shaping post-devolution politics in Wales and Welsh Labour politics on to that territory that we are now so familiar with: left of centre, designed for Wales, clear red water.

Simon Thomas AC: Rhodri Morgan was born to be First Minister, not only because he had the names Rhodri and Hywel, but because of his character and personality. It wasn’t apparent to his own party on two occasions, but, at the third attempt, as Lesley Griffiths has reminded us—three tries for a Welshman—he became leader of a party, an Assembly, a Government and a nation. We needed someone in the early days of devolution who would encapsulate in his personality the nature and quality of devolution, and Rhodri was that individual. The concept of devolution was vague. It was difficult to understand what it meant for the person in the street, in the shop, the surgery or the school, but everyone could turn to Rhodri Morgan and fully understand that this is what devolution is—our own leader.When Rhodri Morgan spoke of ‘clear red water’, he was aiming his comments at his own party, yes, but they were important words for the whole nation. They gave people who were cool about devolution permission to embrace it, saying, ‘Yes, you can be British, a devolutionist, a nationalist, and still be part of the Labour family’. In simple words, he encapsulated the complexities and the benefits of devolution.I have no doubt that we wouldn’t be meeting today as a Parliament with full powers if it weren’t for Rhodri Morgan. Others and other parties played a full part too, but Rhodri’s commitment to the agreement made in the One Wales Government to call and to campaign for a referendum for a full Parliament was always solid and robust. That was true, strong leadership. It was a pleasure and, as the First Minister told us, it was often a lesson, for me to work for him during that time.I will allow others who were more friend than colleague, as I was, to talk more about his unkempt appearance and his hair at times—and the fact I remember that someone had to go a long way to fetch a pair of decent shoes for him to appear at a conference. I will just say that this was his character and his personality. It’s what kept his feet on the ground, and it was not something that was created to hide the true personality, as we find with some politicians and some others.Roeddwn i yn adnabod Julie yn dda cyn i mi adnabod Rhodri, gan y buom ni’n gweithio sawl blwyddyn yn ôl yn y sector gwirfoddol yng Nghymru, ac roeddwn i hefyd yn adnabod Julie fel Aelod Seneddol yn San Steffan.Hoffwn gyfleu fy nghydymdeimlad dwysaf ar fy rhan fy hun, ac ar ran fy nheulu hefyd, i Julie a'i theulu. Gadawodd hi a Rhodri farc annileadwy arna i ac ar fy nheulu hefyd, oherwydd, yn fy nyddiau cynnar yn San Steffan, wrth siarad â Julie, cefais ar ddeall fod gan Rhodri a Julie le cyfrinachol iawn, lle a oedd yn fy etholaeth i bryd hynny, sef carafán ym Mwnt.Roedd hyn yn swnio'n syniad hyfryd o ramantus, ond, yn bwysicach, roedd yn swnio fel yr hyn oedd yn cadw Rhodri a Julie a phawb arall yn gall a dynol mewn bywyd o wleidyddiaeth.Felly, o fewn blwyddyn, roedd gen i fy ngharafán fy hun ar arfordir Ceredigion, er fy mod yn byw yn Aberystwyth.[Chwerthin.]Mae hynny wedi cadw fy nhraed ar y ddaear, a’m cadw yn ddynol a chall, gobeithio.Rwy'n gobeithio y bydd arfordir Ceredigion yn dod â llawer o atgofion melys i chi am Rhodri a'r amser a dreuliasoch ym Mwnt ac am eich teulu yn y fan honno hefyd. As one who studied Welsh at university, I did know Rhodri Morgan’s father, T.J. Morgan, who was a scholar and is well known to anyone who’s studied the Welsh language. He was also a master of the ‘ysgrif’, which is a particular type of Welsh prose, which takes that minor issue and expresses its huge importance, and Rhodri Morgan himself was a master of that art, although he did it orally, rather than on paper.But I did get hold of a collection of essays by Rhodri Morgan’s father, T.J. Morgan, and read it over the weekend to remind me of the humour and the ability to have broad-ranging interests that Rhodri also inherited. And this quote struck me. T.J. Morgan, Rhodri Morgan’s father, talks about ‘arddel’, and Rhodri Morgan would always make that connection and emphasise the importance of espousing where one was from, where one’s family is from, and everything else. He says of the name ‘Morgan’: that Morgan who gave his name to Glamorgan is too vague, and there are too many Morgans in Glamorgan and throughout south Wales generally, for one family to take the name as their inherited right. That may be so, but through his work and his contribution, Rhodri Morgan claimed the whole of Wales and made it Glamorgan.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I, and my family, as many have done today, extend our deepest condolences to Julie and all her family in what is a difficult time, but I hope some of the tributes today have been of great solace to her and her family. Former First Minister Rhodri Morgan appeared in person to give evidence to our committee only two weeks ago, for the inquiry ‘A stronger voice for Wales’, and he demonstrated, as always, his enduring commitment to devolution, but also his passion and his intellect, and his warmth and his wit and his wisdom, built on years of experience serving the people of Wales. But, in my brief remarks today, I want to recall fond personal memories of Rhodri: the warm and engaging Rhodri who people loved because they sensed it was genuinely reciprocated. When I was a Labour branch secretary many, many years ago, it was Rhodri who turned up on a sun-kissed May Day rally on the streets of Ystalyfera, holding up the traffic for 20 minutes outside Nesta’s newsagents, then striding down the streets with a band playing and the miners’ lodge banners flying, and then Rhodri speaking from the back of my father-in-law’s flatbed truck to crowds on the rugby field, and then, as always, being mobbed by people who all just wanted to say ‘hi’ to their Rhodri—and it was in the day before selfies. Being mobbed was an occupational hazard for Rhodri, as I discovered later as a Member of Parliament. My task in one Assembly election was to try and help chaperone Rhodri around Caerphilly town centre. We struggled to make headway, as everyone—simply everyone—wanted to talk politics or rugby or simply say ‘hello’, as if they had discovered a long-lost relative. And Rhodri loved talking too, knowing family connections of every other person and the intimate history of every street in every community. And what other First Minister or senior statesman would risk all to attend a local charity fundraiser in Dylan’s in my hometown of Maesteg, at which a long-time friend of Rhodri’s was performing live on stage? During the act, Rhodri accepted an invitation to go up on stage to take part. It was quite an unusual act. So, we all watched with growing concern as Rhodri duly lay himself down on a bed of six-inch nails, and, for added relish, allowed the performer to walk across him. The headlines were writing themselves in my troubled mind. Personally, and I know I won’t be alone in this, I will remember the selfless way in which he encouraged me and others to take up the mantle of public service and to stand for election. I can honestly say that I would not have done so without his gentle but persuasive persistence that this was a noble calling worth pursuing, and, importantly, he also persuaded my wife that I should. I’ve never regretted it, not least because I, and others, continue to look up to people like Rhodri as role models of lifelong public service in Westminster and here in Wales.To scale the political heights as he did, yet to retain the common touch with such ease, shows the measure of the man and the friend we have lost. His legacy is great and enduring. Rhodri Morgan was a true servant of Wales and a true friend to everyone he knew.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: First of all, Julie, it is so typical of you and of Rhodri that you should be with us in your place today. And we thank you for being here, because it enables us to address you warmly, as I do on the part of my own long-standing, and Mair’s, friendship with you and the family, going back so many years.Fe weithiais i y tro cyntaf gyda Rhodri Morgan pan gafodd o ei ethol i Dŷ’r Cyffredin yn Aelod Seneddol Gorllewin Caerdydd yn 1987. Ond roedd ganddo fo brofiad helaeth cyn ei fod o wedi dod yn Aelod Seneddol. Mae’n bwysig sôn am ei ysgolheictod o, ac, yn wir, ysgolheictod y teulu—fel rydym ni wedi ei glywed yn barod. Oherwydd rwyf innau wedi bod yn gyfaill i’w frawd, Prys, a gyda choffa da iawn am ei dad, oherwydd yr oedd o yn sefyll ben ac ysgwydd ymhlith ysgolheigion llenyddiaeth Gymraeg yn y 1960au i rywun fel fi a oedd yn fyfyriwr, oherwydd ei fod o’n darlithio yn llawer iawn mwy diddorol na’r gweddill ohonyn nhw. Ac roedd y ddawn honno, yn sicr, gan Rhodri.Roedd Rhodri yn ysgolhaig ei hun, yn raddedig o Rydychen, ac o Harvard, wedi bod yn ymchwilydd mewn llywodraeth ganol a lleol, yn ymgynghorydd economaidd i’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant, yn swyddog datblygu De Morgannwg, ac yn bennaeth, fel y clywsom ni, swyddfa’r Gymuned Ewropeaidd. Rwy’n ei gofio fo’n dod i Dŷ’r Cyffredin, ac roeddwn i’n synnu at ei allu fo i sicrhau dyrchafiad mor gyflym. Wrth gwrs, roeddwn i wedi bod yn rhyw fath o Aelod mainc cefn, ac yn rhyw arweinydd annigonol i blaid dipyn bach yn llai. Ond mi fuodd o, fel y cofiwn ni, yn San Steffan yn llefarydd swyddogol ar yr amgylchedd i’r wrthblaid, ar ynni, ac, wrth gwrs, ar faterion Cymreig. A dyna pryd y gosodwyd seiliau cynlluniau datganoli 1997.Ac yna, yr weithred olaf, efallai, yn San Steffan, oedd bod yn gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Weinyddiaeth Gyhoeddus. Mae’n bwysig i ni ddweud am gyfraniad Rhodri fel seneddwr yn y Deyrnas Unedig nad rhyw fath o ‘maverick’ oedd y dyn yma. Roedd yn seneddwr dawnus, a oedd yn gallu defnyddio holl sgiliau’r Senedd i ddrysu’r Llywodraeth. Rwy’n cofio’n dda iawn am yr orfodaeth filwrol, bron, a oedd arnom ni i wrthwynebu morglawdd Bae Caerdydd, a Rhodri, wrth gwrs, a oedd y tu ôl i hynny i gyd.Ac yna, pan ddaeth o yma—wel, fel rydych chi’n ei wybod, gallwn eich cadw chi yma drwy’r dydd am y 10 mlynedd hyfryd o berthynas a gefais i fel Llywydd cynta’r Cynulliad hwn gyda’r Prif Weinidog cyntaf, oherwydd fe oedd y dyn a greodd y swydd iddo fe’i hunan. Ac roedd y digwyddiad hwnnw, efallai, yn un y caf i eich atgoffa chi ohono fo cyn i fi gloi y prynhawn yma. Roedd hi tua un o’r gloch y prynhawn, ac ar yr adeg honno, rwy’n credu bod y Cynulliad yn cwrdd am hanner awr wedi dau—yn yr hen Siambr, wrth gwrs. Roedd y neges wedi dod bod Rhodri Morgan eisiau newid ei enw a theitl ei swydd. Ac yna, wrth gwrs, rhoddodd wybod i’r Llywydd ar y pryd, a dywedodd o mai’r teitl oedd ‘First Minister’ yn Saesneg.Ond wedyn, dyma’r glo mân yn dod miwn, fel y byddwn ni’n ei ddweud yn nhafodiaith y gorllewin. Beth oedd y cyfieithiad Cymraeg cywir o ‘First Minister’? Oherwydd roedd yna ryw gyfieithydd, na wnaf i ei henwi—nid yw hi’n gweithio yn y lle hwn bellach—a oedd wedi cyfieithu ‘First Minister’ fel ‘Gweinidog Cyntaf’. Wrth gwrs, yn anaml iawn yn ei fywyd y mae rhywun yn teimlo bod ganddo fo awdurdod ar unrhyw bwnc, ond roeddwn i’n gwybod mai’r ‘Gweinidog Cyntaf’ oedd y gweinidog cyntaf a ddaeth i’r capel, ac wedyn daeth gweinidog wedyn, a gweinidog arall. Ac mi geisiais i esbonio:‘We have two ways of saying these things in Welsh. There is primacy in terms of seriality, and there is real primacy. So, there is only one translation of this.’‘First Minister’ yn Gymraeg yw ‘Prif Weinidog Cymru’. Chwarter awr cyn i’r Cynulliad eistedd, dyma’r e-bost yn dod, a’r neges yn dod nôl bod y Prif Weinidog yn derbyn yn llawen y bydd o’n cael ei alw’n ‘First Minister’ yn Saesneg a ‘Prif Weinidog Cymru’ yn Gymraeg. Fi oedd y person cyntaf yn y bydysawd i ddefnyddio’r geiriau ‘Prif Weinidog Cymru’. Ac rwy’n cofio fy mod i wedi trio ei siarad o bach yn ‘sotto voce’, fel bod neb yn cynhyrfu. Ond wrth gwrs, mae yna wastad un i gael. So, dyma Rhodri Glyn ar ei draed, wrth gwrs, ar bwynt o drefn, i ofyn i’r Llywydd beth oedd y teitl newydd yma, ac a oedd e’n wirioneddol yn ‘Brif Weinidog Cymru’. Wel, fe ddaeth Rhodri Morgan yn wirioneddol Brif Weinidog Cymru, ac fe ges i 10 mlynedd o bleser pur. Nid oeddem ni byth yn cwympo mas. Nid fy mod i’n argymell y dylai Llywyddion a Phrif Weinidogion gwympo mas, ond roedd e wedi digwydd o’r blaen, ac fe allai fe ddigwydd mewn llefydd eraill. Ond roedd Rhodri yn deall cyfansoddiad ym mêr ei esgyrn, a drwy ei ymennydd mawr i gyd. Roedd e’n deall yr egwyddorion o wahanu rhwng Llywodraeth a Chynulliad, yr angen i graffu ar Lywodraeth drwy fod yn annibynnol, a’r gallu i’r Llywodraeth dderbyn beirniadaeth. Roedd hynny i gyd yna, oherwydd ei brofiad o fel seneddwr yn San Steffan.Felly, fe allwn ni wedyn fwrw ymlaen i godi’r hyn yr ydym ni wedi ei godi. Wrth gwrs, nid oedd o blaid yr adeilad yma. Roedd o eisiau estyniad yn y cefn, yn Nhŷ Hywel, ond chafodd o ddim o’i ffordd yn y cyfeiriad yna. Ond fo oedd y cyntaf i ddweud, unwaith y daeth yr adeilad i fod, ei fod o yn ymfalchïo ynddo fo. Rydw i’n falch ein bod ni, fel yr ydw i’n deall, yn bwriadu dathlu ei ymadawiad o o’r lle hwn yn briodol yn yr adeilad yma yr wythnos nesaf. Adeilad pobl Cymru yw hwn, ond Rhodri Morgan a adeiladodd y wleidyddiaeth ar ei gyfer o.

Mick Antoniw AC: I had the honour to know Rhodri over many decades. That wasn’t very exceptional. I think everyone involved in the Labour Party in Wales knew Rhodri at some time or other. In fact, everyone in Wales seemed to know Rhodri at some time or other. I do remember his personal kindness to me and to my late wife Elaine. But I would like to make a specific tribute on behalf of those thousands of people in Wales who, like Rhodri, gave several decades of their lives to the campaign against apartheid in South Africa, and the international sporting and cultural boycott that eventually contributed to the downfall of the apartheid regime. In Wales, through the Wales Anti-Apartheid Movement, it was one of the most effective campaigns across the world. It engaged, over several decades, generations of activists and knew no party political boundaries, and Rhodri was a founder member of the Wales Anti-Apartheid Movement. He was at the forefront of that movement, and alongside many other major Welsh political figures, such as Neil Kinnock, Lord Jack Brooks, Phil Squire, who was then the leader of Mid Glamorgan council, Jenny Randerson, South Glamorgan council leader Bob Morgan, Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Dafydd Iwan through song, and many others—Dai Francis—Rhodri, alongside Julie, was always there in that campaign. In the 1980s, he was part of a delegation to the National Eisteddfod, which successfully established a cultural boycott, something that would in previous years have been unheard of. He supported the rugby boycott, something that was not easy for an ardent rugby fan. He actively campaigned and supported the calls for the release of Nelson Mandela, and upon his release from prison—Mandela’s, that is—he proudly spoke of the special link between Wales and South Africa. This was recognised by Nelson Mandela and by the African National Congress. Rhodri was a participant in the famous Welsh fundraising sponsored walk held each year to raise funds for charities commemorating the Soweto massacre, a walk that, in fact, carries on to this day, and I walk I know he enjoyed—5 miles from Llantwit Major to the Plough and Harrow pub in Monknash, and then, much more slowly, back again. Alongside so many, Rhodri was a spokesman for all that was so good in Wales when it came to standing up against injustice wherever it occurred, and in the best internationalist traditions of Wales. So, on behalf of all those who were involved in that movement—and I know they would like me to say this—thank you, Rhodri. You were a great campaigner for justice and international solidarity and you played your part in Wales in bringing the evil of apartheid to an end.

Dai Lloyd AC: I also rise as a member of the class of 1999, and also the chair of the Plaid Cymru group here at the Assembly. I met Rhodri Morgan for the first time in 1996. We were both on a panel discussing the health service back in 1996, and I remember him being surprised that a young doctor wanted to venture into this world of politics. I was rather surprised myself, to be honest, and perhaps I’m still slightly surprised. But that is my earliest memory of Rhodri Morgan, and he was great company on that day.Of course, in 1999, the original 60 Members here were elected, and it’s strange to think of all the Plenary sessions that have been held here over the years, some in quite good times and others in quite difficult times, such as today, to be honest. This day was black enough already. It’s become even darker with the overnight news from Manchester.There is a significant challenge for us as a nation in the light of everything that is occurring in our world today, and we are very proud to have this Assembly as a basis for the way in which we can respond. Therefore, I am very proud to be able to pay tribute to Rhodri Morgan’s work over the years. Yes, we have heard that in the early years, things were quite delicate here at times, but gradually, the powers have grown and the referendum was won in 2011, and this Senedd is on its way to becoming a real Parliament. It’s fair to say that our thanks are greatly due to the special contribution of Rhodri Morgan to secure the strengthening of this Senedd over the years. It is needed more than ever, to protect Wales today. We see that Julie is here and I’m pleased to be able to greet you as a friend, as a colleague and Member of this Assembly, and we sympathise deeply with you and all your family. I am aware, of course, that the family are present in the public gallery, and it’s good to greet my old friend and the brother of Rhodri Morgan, Professor Prys Morgan. We have been friends in Swansea for over 30 years. He’s a very close friend and a genius of Wales’s history. The contribution of the Morgan family, the Morgans, as we’ve already heard, has been exceptional, and we have you all in our prayers.

Julie James AC: I just wanted to share a few short anecdotes from our family about Rhodri and Julie as well. One cherished story in our family is: long before Rhodri had ever become a public figure, in their early relationship, Julie took Rhodri up to meet my grandparents in a little cottage on a hill above Swansea. My grandmother was a very sociable Welsh mam and would have been full of tea and Welsh cakes, but my grandfather not so much. He could be a little judgmental perhaps, and very firm in his views and beliefs. So, my father called a little afterwards, perhaps with a little trepidation, to see how the visit had gone and was astonished to find my grandfather said that he was ‘all right’—a little pause—‘yes, he’s all right’, and then, on his way out of the house, my grandmother leaning forward and saying, ‘He passed very high, very high’. I’ve never asked Julie about her version of that story, but it’s a cherished one in the family. Then, of course, as time went on, Rhodri and Julie became much more public figures, but still always had the time to share with the family and to come to family occasions and be hospitable in Cardiff or come down to Swansea and be hospitable. The whole family cherishes the spirited discussions that ranged right from autism at the last lunch, in the family and in Wales as a wider thing, to the labyrinthine family connections of who was related to who, and sleeping with who, and not sleeping with who, or divorced from who, and so on, that Rhodri could effortlessly span, the intricate details of Cardiff and Swansea local politics, which he also seemed to have a labyrinthine knowledge of, extraordinarily, and then, even more astonishing, my father mentioning something that had happened in Canada—a spirited and in-depth discussion about Canadian politics, and the relationship of Welsh mining to Canadian mining, and so on. I’m not telling you anything you didn’t know about Rhodri. He seemed to know everything about everything. He had the time and the energy to give to people, and Julie alongside him. They were very kind to my family when my father was ill, taking the time and trouble to support us. They will be sadly missed. We loved them dearly, and my deepest condolences to Julie and the family.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I’m pleased to pay my own tribute to Rhodri—a giant of our nation. He was a patriot, a democratic, pragmatic socialist who made a huge difference to our nation. He brought stability to this place in a very troubled time. My own story with Rhodri goes back to the 1980s, when I was extremely proud that our branch of the Labour Party was the first to nominate Rhodri to be our Member of Parliament for Cardiff West. I will never forget that, and Rhodri never forgot it either, because the love that that community had for Rhodri was immense. He loved the working class there, and they loved him back. He was authentic in everything, and that authenticity was something that came over very clearly—a little too authentic for some of us, at times. We had to send him home to change his jeans that were too dirty and he had no shirt and tie, and we had to send him back to smarten himself up a little bit for Ely. But he made a huge impression—a huge impression—on our nation. I just want to pay a quick tribute in poetry:He was a great choice, and Rhodri, full of life and fun, a Labour man to the core, and may that persist—a giant of the people and a giant of his nation.Julie, rwy’n gobeithio y byddwch yn derbyn ein holl gariad ar yr adeg anodd hon, a diolch yn fawr iawn am rannu Rhodri gyda phob un ohonom ni.

Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch. I wanted to speak very briefly just to thank you, from all parties, for your tributes, because they are deeply comforting. I know that to be First Minister here for Rhodri was the pinnacle of his political career, and he loved this place. He loved this Parliament, this Assembly. He also loved the House of Commons. He loved the thrust of politics and he had enormous enthusiasm for it. I will never forget him going up to the House of Commons weighed down with bags and arriving back in the early hours of the morning, because, of course, they were sleepy and they were having these very, very long nights in the House of Commons then. But he did enjoy it all enormously. It meant so much to him. One thing I want to say about Rhodri that was very important: he never looked back. He made his decisions and he never regretted them. So, when he left here as First Minister, he never looked back and he never said to me, ‘Oh, I wish I’d done this’ or ‘I wish I’d done that’. He just looked forward at what he still wanted to do. The eight years that he had after being First Minister, they were so full and so fulfilled. Many people that are here today have mentioned that he absolutely loved the garden. He had the most wonderful crops and he had them all prepared for our big extended family, who are here in the Chamber today, to give them those vegetables when they came. As Jane said, he’d just had an extra five new chickens. So, I’m going to be very busy looking after the chickens and the vegetables. But he also did a lot of other things. He’s nearly finished his book, which I’m sure you’ll all be interested to read when it’s published. He loved being the Chancellor of Swansea University. He was very involved with Cell Therapy, a company he was very involved with. So, every minute was enjoyment, and he really always looked forward. He was immensely fulfilled. We’ve had, I would say, a rollercoaster sort of life, with the politics being so rollercoaster. You know, it’s been rosettes, rosettes all the way, but it’s been wonderful. It’s been a huge pleasure and I really feel that losing Rhodri is a terrible personal blow to me and to the family. It is an aching loss, and I know that I haven’t realised yet the full enormity. But, it is very comforting to listen to what everybody has said today, and the tributes from everybody here in the Chamber and from all over Wales that we have received have been a huge comfort. I’d like to finish by saying that he had a wonderful life and he enjoyed every minute. [Applause.]

I’m grateful to you all for your noteworthy and sincere contributions, and I’m particularly grateful to Julie and the family for sharing these tributes with us. We will never see the like of Rhodri Morgan in this Senedd again. You’ve all alluded to his humour, his wit, his detailed and encyclopaedic knowledge and his unrivalled intelligence, coupled with the force of his rhetoric. For those of us who’ve served here since 1999, we will not forget his courage and boldness in creating and leading the Welsh Government. Rhodri ploughed his own furrow, and did so in order to do what he believed was best for this nation.As we heard, Rhodri’s utopia was a small patch of Ceredigion—Mwnt. During the summer, reports would reach the local Assembly Member that the First Minister of Wales was in his shorts on the beach at Mwnt, or could be seen reading a newspaper on the rocks by the sea or swimming with the dolphins that had ventured once again to play in the shallow waters. In his caravan on Blaenwaun farm, Rhodri was given peace, tranquillity and time to reflect, to recharge his batteries and to relax in the company of his closest family. Roedd Rhodri Morgan yn bolymath—roedd ei wybodaeth a’i gof yn aruthrol.Dyma’r dyn, wrth ddadorchuddio llun o Colin Jackson yn y Cynulliad, a allai adrodd amseroedd rasys mawr yr athletwr i'r canfed rhan o eiliad.Roedd yn llawn o'r annisgwyl.Fe’m lloriodd yn llwyr pan oeddwn i’n Weinidog materion gwledig iddo, pan ofynnodd i mi, ar draws bwrdd y Cabinet, am yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf ynghylch sut yr oeddwn i’n bwriadu mynd i’r afael ag ymosodiad o sglefrod môr a oedd yn bwyta eogiaid.Roedd yn ein harwain gyda’i galon yn y Siambr hon.Roedd yn ein parchu ni i gyd, ac yn cymryd diddordeb ym mhob un ohonom ni ac yn yr holl gymunedau yr oeddem yn eu cynrychioli.Roedd Rhodri yn ddyn a oedd yn arwain ei wlad gydag angerdd a realaeth, ac fe nofiai’n dawel gyda'r dolffiniaid. Gadewch i ni gofio Rhodri a sefyll er parch i bopeth a gyflawnodd dros ei genedl, ac i gydymdeimlo â Julie a'r teulu.

Assembly Members stood for a minute’s silence.

Thank you, Rhodri. That concludes our tributes.

Plenary was suspended at 13:54.

The Assembly reconvened at 14:05, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

3. 2. Questions to the First Minister

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

Questions now to the First Minister and the first question is from Paul Davies.

<p>Health Services in Pembrokeshire </p>

Paul Davies AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve health services in Pembrokeshire over the next twelve months? OAQ(5)0610(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, our priority is to provide the people of Pembrokeshire with health services that deliver the best possible outcomes for patients.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, it’s important that we do improve health services in Pembrokeshire over the next 12 months to start to tackle obesity, because, unfortunately, obesity rates in the Hywel Dda Local Health Board area have increased as compared with other health boards. Now, I accept that the Assembly passed the Public Health (Wales) Bill recently, which will assist in tackling the problems of obesity, but can you tell us what specific steps the Welsh Government intends to introduce in the next 12 months in order to start to tackle obesity problems?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, of course, we have considered this previously, and it’s fair to say that there’s more yet to be done. We will build on the basis of the At in order to ensure that strategies are put in place to deal with this problem. It’s a problem not just in Wales, but in every wealthy country in western Europe, and, of course, it’s arising, too, in countries where it hasn’t been seen previously.

Simon Thomas AC: First Minister, you will know that the people of Pembrokeshire are very eager to return to a situation where paediatric services are available in Withybush during the night-time hours so that they’re available 24/7, and that a petition is soon to be presented to the Assembly to that end. Just for clarity, do you agree that that is the ideal position that we should aim towards, and do you, as a Government, have a timetable for achieving that?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, what’s important, of course, is that services are secure. Where services have been amended, and the royal colleges have said that that is something that should have been done, then we support that as a Government. But, having said that, we must ensure that every service that can be delivered at Withybush is available in the hospital, but that doesn’t mean to say that everything that people would wish to see has to be there. We must ensure that the services are safe for the people of Pembrokeshire and the Hywel Dda LHB area.

<p>The North Wales Economy</p>

Mark Isherwood AC: 2. What support is the Welsh Government giving to the North Wales economy? OAQ(5)0611(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We continue to support economic development across the whole of Wales by helping businesses to grow, investing in high quality infrastructure, and improving economic development conditions.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. At the CBI north Wales dinner a week ago last Thursday, which, of course, your colleague, Ken Skates, also attended, alongside some other Members, we heard that the north Wales growth deal bid was nearing completion and then ready to go to UK Government and, obviously, Welsh Government. When the UK Government first made the growth bid offer, it said it would be looking to work with the Welsh Government to devolve powers down. In his stakeholders update in April, the chief executive of Flintshire council, who’s leading the team putting together the bid for the six north Wales councils, said ambitions for the devolved powers to be granted to the region include transport functions, strategic land use planning, business innovation, advisory functions, careers advice and taxation, by which he means devolved taxation powers, all powers which are within the gift or otherwise of Welsh Government. How will your Government be responding to this call?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, ‘carefully’ I think is the word that I’d use. Firstly, if we look at business rates, if they were to be devolved to local authorities then 17 of the 22 local authorities would lose out. So, we must be careful that we don’t see that situation arise. We will look to devolve powers to appropriate bodies where we can. It’s fair to say that not all local authorities are able to exercise those powers effectively. We want local authorities to work in regional bodies, but we are fully committed to the growth bid and, of course, we will work with the UK Government in order to take that bid forward.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Since being elected a year ago, I’ve not only wanted to serve my own constituency, but also to be a strong voice for the whole of north-east Wales. I’m pleased that in the past 12 months we’ve witnessed much Welsh Government investment in my own constituency alone, from Flint castle to Theatr Clwyd, to support for local businesses, but alongside major proposals to improve our infrastructure across the whole of north Wales. Does the First Minister agree with me that what the people and communities of north Wales need is action not just words, and that he will further reassure us in north Wales that the Welsh Government remains committed to investing and supporting our region?

Carwyn Jones AC: Very much so. Work is already under way, of course, to help deliver the Wylfa Newydd project. We announced the £20 million fund to establish an advanced manufacturing and research institute, supporting key employers like Airbus. We’ve announced plans, of course, to invest more than £200 million in the A55/A494 corridor. We’ve committed £50 million to take forward the first phase of the north-east Wales metro, and, of course, backing, a little further west, for the third crossing over the Menai. That’s in addition to £1 million-worth of funding to develop a new business hub in Wrexham supporting 100 new businesses.

<p>Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders</p>

I now call for questions from the party leaders. First of all, Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, people across Wales are grieving for those in Manchester and further afield following the horrific events last night. I’d like to pass on my condolences and solidarity with everyone affected. The senseless violence and the fact that there are children and young people among the victims has left the whole of the UK devastated. I know you made a statement earlier on, but can you place on record all of our appreciation for the men and the women of the emergency services and all of those people who have worked overnight and today to treat the wounded and to help those get to safety? It’s worth reiterating, in my view, how much our public service workers are valued at a difficult time like this.

Carwyn Jones AC: Very much so. I’m sure that the entire Chamber was supportive of what I said earlier on and indeed what the leader of Plaid Cymru has said. There are always exercises to look at how attacks like this can be dealt with, but when it actually happens, then, of course, the system is tested very rigorously. And certainly, what we have seen from the emergency services, what we’ve seen from the hospitals and what we’ve seen from the community shows the level of resilience even in the face of tragedy.

Leanne Wood AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. While the facts as to who is responsible are still being established, we know that attacks like this can put enormous strain upon community relations in Welsh cities as well as in other parts of the UK. One of the objectives of extremists, aside from harming innocent people, is to divide communities. They want to make people fearful and suspicious of each other so that they can profit from alienation and division. The real story is of people of all backgrounds and faiths, emergency workers, taxi drivers, coming together to face down those extremists. Will you reiterate today, First Minister, that none of us here will let terrorists divide our communities?

Carwyn Jones AC: Absolutely not. Extremists only represent themselves; a very small number of people with a worldview that is intolerant and is driven to violence. They are happy to murder people of all religions or none. They are happy to murder young people who are doing nothing more than going out for a night out. It’s too early to say, of course, the extent of what surrounded the events last night. The police are still investigating and it is important that there’s no speculation in order for those investigations to be carried forward. But make no mistake: whoever carried out the attacks of last night represented only themselves and a very small group of people around them. They can never represent an entire community.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch yn fawr, First Minister, and I’m sure that message will be appreciated by many communities throughout Wales and beyond. It’s important, First Minister, that everyone remains calm and that we don’t change the way we live our lives in the face of this senseless and tragic violence. People planning to visit our capital city in the coming weeks need further reassurance. Can you update the Assembly on the security preparations for major events such as the Champions League final in Cardiff on 3 June?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. I touched on this in the conversation I had with the deputy national security advisor. The security arrangements for the Champions League final are robust. I met with a number of the organisations involved last week for the final time, including gold command. All the preparations are in place in terms of communications and in terms of security. Members and indeed members of the public will see over the course of the next few days the arrangements being put in place in order that people can come to our capital city to enjoy themselves and be left with a favourable impression. We know there are some people who would not wish that to be so. Anything that can be learned from the events over the last 24 hours will be factored in to the security arrangements for the Champions League final. But this is the world we live in. We are aware of what needs to be done in order to provide for the security of the public when they come to our capital city, and working with the police and other authorities, that’s exactly what we intend to do.

Leader of the opposition, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. If I may, Presiding Officer, I will not take my three questions today, given I think we need to stand shoulder to shoulder and face down this act of evil, this atrocity that happened in Manchester last night. As a father, I cannot think of anything more horrific than being separated from your children, separated from your loved ones, in the uncertain knowledge of what might have happened to them. I, like many parents, would have dropped my children off at events, to meet at a designated spot, and they come back safely. I can only offer my love, my support, my condolence to each and every member who’s gone through a bereavement, the injured in hospital and pay tribute to the dedication of the public services who responded so quickly and so professionally to that atrocity, that act of evil, that visited Manchester last night. But I would like to put three points to you, if I may, First Minister. The first is that what became evident today was the amount of people who did go from north Wales to Manchester, as they do on an everyday basis to attend events in Manchester. On the radio this morning, there were many parents and many youngsters who’d attended that event. There will be a requirement for help and support. I don’t know the destination of some of the bereaved or, obviously, the injured parties in the hospitals, or where they’ve come from, but I’m sure some of those individuals will have come from north Wales. I know it’s early hours and early days yet, but what calibration, what work is the Welsh Government doing with the public services in north Wales to make sure that that help and support is there for the families, in the education field but also in the health field as well, to make sure that no stone is left unturned when families look for that support and look for that help from those services in north Wales? And if extra resources are required—I’m sure you will confirm this—those extra resources will be made available to local authorities and also to the health boards. Secondly, as the leader of Plaid Cymru quite clearly identified, we do have a major sporting event in the Champions League final happening here in a little over 10 days’ time, but there are events across the whole of Wales that happen on a day-to-day, week-by-week basis, and it falls to all of us to play our part to work with the security services, whether it be the police or MI5 or any of the security services, to make sure we can be the eyes and ears on the streets and reporting what we see. But how can the Welsh Government distil down any information it has so that the public can have confidence that they can attend these events in the full knowledge that every measure possible has been put in place to protect the public, and to allow democracy and our free society to continue to function, because we must not be cowered by these acts of violence? That is one thing that is quite critical. And thirdly, what I’d like to just seek from the First Minister, as we do go forward, is that any information that is available—and the First Minister’s indicated that he has received a security briefing this morning, and I presume some of that information, not all of that information, might be confidential—but where information can be made available, it is made available in a timely manner to the public in Wales and to organisers of events so that, again, people can go about their everyday lives and play the important role that we all have to play in our great democracy of standing up against these acts of evil that visited Manchester last night. We stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Manchester and whatever happens, we will not be beaten by such atrocities.

Carwyn Jones AC: I thank the leader of the Welsh Conservatives for his comments. It is difficult for us in this Chamber and the vast majority of people across the world to conceive of a philosophy that holds that murdering young people advances the cause of humanity. How can we understand those thought processes? But we know that there are some, unfortunately, who hold those views, and there is, of course, a duty on all authorities to provide as much protection as possible to the public against these people. After the events in Tunisia, we did set up a helpline that looked to provide signposting to counselling for people. We will look to do the same thing again in the aftermath of this event. We are not aware of anybody who has been injured or killed who comes from Wales as yet. There is nothing to indicate that but, of course, we will monitor the situation very, very closely. One thing I think we do need to be careful of is not to put people off coming to events. He is right when he says that the last thing we should do is to modify our behaviour, and our beliefs for that matter, in the face of terrorism. That’s exactly what they want. They want us to become more intolerant so that we share their intolerance. They want us to alter the way in which we exercise our freedom and go to events. They see that as a victory. What I can say to people is that, of course, we will be taking further advice with regard to the Champions League, but a lot of work has already been done regarding security around the Champions League. That work has been in train for many, many months, as Members would expect, given the fact that it is an event of significant size.In terms of information, he has identified the issues. Firstly, some information is shared on what is effectively Privy Council basis; it’s confidential. Members will understand that there is information that needs to be kept confidential so as not to interfere with any police investigation. Of course, where information is no longer sensitive and where that information needs to be shared with the public, that will happen at the appropriate time.

Leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Can I congratulate the First Minister on speaking so finely for us all in this Assembly in his statement at the start of today’s proceedings, and to add my condolences and the condolences of my party—Members here and members of the party in the country—to those who’ve lost their lives and been maimed in the horrible outrage in Manchester? I agree with the First Minister that it is impossible for us to understand the mindset of those who are prepared indiscriminately to slaughter children in the way that happened last night. Not the first time—in the Arndale Centre, of course, in Manchester—where an event of this kind has occurred. When I was a Member of Parliament, just a few miles away from the centre of Manchester, back in the 1990s, we had a similar kind of outrage from, in those days, the IRA. I’m sure the First Minister will agree with me that the best way that a democratic society can fight against such tendencies is to carry on as normal so far as we can. For a democratic assembly like the National Assembly for Wales—whilst it is right that we should suspend the party-political dog fight for today, we’re in the middle of an election campaign nationally as well—the best act of defiance for us is to continue to do what democratic societies do and which totalitarian societies do not, that is to solve our differences by means of debate rather than by the bomb and the bullet. So, I have no further questions for the first Minister today, but I’d like to express my solidarity with everyone else who has spoken on what was going to be a sombre day for us in any event because of tributes to Rhodri, but which has been made immeasurably worse by the events of last night.

Carwyn Jones AC: Can I thank the leader of UKIP for his comments? One of the main purposes of acts such as this is to make us more angry and more intolerant in order to provoke an even greater reaction. We do not need to do that. We are bigger than they are. Today, the mood of the Chamber is sombre—that’s true, and with good reason. In the next few days, we’ll get back to debate, we’ll get back to robust electioneering—that’s the nature of what we do. But that is the essence of our democracy: robust debate and exchange of ideas is what gives us the ability to see ourselves as a free society. The actions of last night were designed to close down that which makes us a free society.It is absolutely right to say that we should carry on. Of course we have to be cautious when it comes to security and for people who visit—not just Wales but any other country—they need to be assured that their security is paramount to us. I can say that is absolutely true as far as the Welsh Government, and indeed the UK Government, is concerned. But I have children in the age range of the majority of those who would have been at that concert last night. What exactly did they do to deserve to be injured or killed? We can’t answer that question. The answer to that question lies in a tormented, intolerant and dangerous mind. That was the mind, I believe, of the perpetrator who carried out the attack last night. But, as I said, we can get above that. The strongest message that we can send to those who wish to terrorise our society is that they cannot win, and they cannot win, because we will carry on enjoying our freedoms, we will carry on enjoying what we have built over many decades and centuries, and we will never give way to their intolerance and their violence.

<p>The Wales and Borders Rail Network </p>

Steffan Lewis AC: 3. How much public money was invested in the Wales and Borders rail network in the last financial year? OAQ(5)0613(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: [Inaudible.]—the Welsh Government provides £180 million in franchise subsidy payments and funding for additional services and rolling stock.

Steffan Lewis AC: I thank the First Minister for that answer, and I declare an interest that my sister is an employee of Network Rail. I wonder if the First Minister can provide updated figures on the amount of profit made by the current operator of that franchise. I have figures for 2012 that show that that company made a profit of £13.6 million, and of course, that’s a company that is entirely owned by the German Government, and bidding is under way for the next franchise. I wonder if the First Minister can tell us whether he remains committed to returning the rail network to public ownership, and if so, does he believe that an opportunity has been missed in not using the operator-of-last-resort provision in order to bring it back into Welsh public ownership as quickly as possible?

Carwyn Jones AC: I do remain committed to that. Unfortunately, of course, due to the provision in the Wales Act, it’s not an option open to us. We have not been permitted to look at an arm’s-length public body being used to run the franchise, unlike in Scotland. He will know that this is an issue where we share the same view and something that we are in dispute with the UK Government over. As part of the franchising process next year, we expect to see the best value for money delivered for Welsh customers, and, of course, significant investment in rolling stock. There are many people who use the Valleys lines who are on rolling stock that are many, many decades old. They deserve better than that and we want to see that delivered over the course of the next franchise period.

Jenny Rathbone AC: It is a strange irony, is it not, that Arriva trains receives one of the highest subsidies of any public train provider, and yet has just declared record profits. I’m sure that you, like me, would like to see a Government with a more rational approach to the way we run our railways after 8 June. But, for now, we have a UK Government that is, unfortunately, committed to insisting that the £125 million that has been set aside to improve our rail services must be spent on electrifying the Valleys lines, when all the experts are clear that light rail is both more cost-effective and will improve the journey times in a way that electrification will not. What do you think your Government can do to ensure that there is a much more rational approach to the way we invest public money, to ensure that we get the gains that are needed in the metro system that we hope to deliver across south-east Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we have a curious system where a public subsidy of £180 million is provided to a private company, which then makes a profit of £14 million on top. It’s very difficult to justify that sort of level. We weren’t in charge of the franchise when it was awarded last time around, but it’s very difficult to justify that to the public. Of course, light rail is electrified. There are different ways of doing it, you don’t have to have overhead cabling—there are other means of doing that—but, for me, the core principle of the metro is that it should be extendable. Yes, of course, we have the core network in place at the moment, but in time, the plan is to look at new routes that are not currently served by heavy rail. If we are serious about developing the region around Cardiff and beyond, then we have to make sure that people can travel without having to get into their cars, thus causing greater congestion. So, that extendibility and also the mix of provision that will be part, no doubt, of the metro, will provide that flexibility for the future as well.

Nick Ramsay AC: First Minister, 60 years ago I would’ve been able to travel from my village of Raglan in Monmouthshire by rail to Cardiff. That can’t be done now, because obviously, we lost a lot of the branch line rail network back in the 1950s and 1960s. You’ve mentioned the need to make sure that the metro is expandable and that it reaches areas of south Wales and the south-east Wales city region that it hasn’t to date, or wouldn’t be able to at the moment. Have you looked any more at the issue of a potential metro hub at the Celtic Manor, or within the area of the Celtic Manor? I have raised this in the past with the Cabinet Secretary for infrastructure. I think that if you looked at developing a hub at that point, you could then have a very good core to build out from into the rural areas around Newport and up to my neck of the woods, to make sure that everyone could benefit from the metro.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I’m tempted to pull his leg and say, ‘Well, the Tory Government closed down the railway line’, but I’m not quite sure whether it was or not. It was a long time ago. [Laughter.]

Nick Ramsay AC: Not that one. I think we can share that.

Carwyn Jones AC: What we do know is that in the 1950s and early 1960s, many lines were closed by Governments of either persuasion. We also saw, of course, the closure of the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line to passengers in 1964, and to milk in 1973, with the track being taken up very soon after. A great tragedy and something we could have certainly profited from in terms of being able to run a service on that line, at least as far as Strata Florida now. But, yes, I take his point: it is hugely important that areas of Wales that are not being served by any form of railway should be served in the future by a form of transport that may include probably light rail rather than heavy rail. We know, of course, in his constituency that much of the former rail track going out to Monmouth has been built over by the dual carriageway, and the Celtic Manor is an important part of our plans for developing the metro. As I said, at the core of the thinking for the metro is that the system should be flexible and extendable, and that means looking at parts of Wales that have not had a rail service for many, many years, as much of his constituency has not had.

Question four, John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Excuse me, Llywydd, I’m temporarily embarrassed, I’m afraid. I’ll have to get that question up.

<p>Integrated Transport in South-East Wales</p>

John Griffiths AC: 4. Will the First Minister provide an update on progress with integrated transport in south-east Wales? OAQ(5)0614(FM)

I think you should thank Huw Irranca-Davies. [Laughter.]

Carwyn Jones AC: The national transport finance plan is a live document and contains an ambitious programme of interventions that are in varying stages of development, and we will update the plan periodically to reflect developments over time, and of course the changing profile of need across Wales.

John Griffiths AC: Would you agree with me, First Minister, that active travel must be an important part of integrated transport in south-east Wales, and now that local authorities are working up their integrated plans for the future, Welsh Government must continue to take a keen interest in those plans and make sure that they fit with that wider integrated transport agenda?

Carwyn Jones AC: Absolutely so. The change that is happening—it’s not yet happened across every local authority—the change that is happening at the moment is that cycling and walking are seen as modes of transport rather than means of recreation alone. We know that many of our cities are well placed to deliver cycle paths and cycle routes. We know that the issue for many people who might cycle is they don’t want to be on the road with cars. For the brave, yes they do, and quite rightly so because they have every right to be on the road. But the more we can develop cycle routes that are physically separated from cars, the more people we will attract, I believe, onto those routes because they don’t feel they have to compete with cars and lorries on the road. And that’s very much part of course, as he will know, of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013.

Mark Reckless AC: Following the very welcome abolition of the Severn tolls, and we hope the construction of an M4 relief road, does the First Minister agree with me that the importance of rail as an alternative to integrate with the road system only increases? And does he welcome the decision of his Cabinet Secretary that the Magor-Undy proposal for a new train station should be taken forward, as well as Llanwern and St Mellons, which are identified within the first 12, as putting three new rail stations on that route between Cardiff and the Severn would transform the nature of the service?

Carwyn Jones AC: I’m not sure the tolls have actually been abolished yet, but certainly that’s something that we would welcome. I always welcome statements made by my Cabinet Ministers, and it’s right to stay that, in different stages, we are looking at reopening lines to the east of Cardiff and Newport—an area that’s not been well served by the rail network. We know, for example, that the eastern part of the city of Cardiff has been historically very poorly served. There is a need to improve public transport links to the eastern part of the city and the same applies, of course, to settlements between Newport and the Severn bridge. We can’t simply build roads. We must make sure, as roads are improved and built, that we also provide better public transport connections as well.

Gareth Bennett AC: One of the harder things to achieve with public transport is the travel card that enables passengers to travel on different types of transport. I know that your Government is going to be involved with negotiating the new rail franchises. How much of a priority will providing that kind of travel card form in your talks with the rail companies?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, there are two issues: firstly, it’s trickier dealing with travel card negotiations at railway stations because there’s more than one operator. In terms of the metro, it’s essential that there is an integrated Oyster-style travel card available, although even in London now, of course, it’s possible to travel simply by using a contactless debit card. So, actually, Oyster cards are now even less essential than once they were. For some people, of course, they’re important—for those who don’t have access to contactless cards, yes, they need them to travel—but it is absolutely crucial that the network of the south-east Wales metro has one card that covers all journeys within the metro area. Otherwise, of course, it’s not an integrated system.

Michelle Brown is not in the Chamber to ask question 5 [OAQ(5)0622(FM)]. Question 6, Hannah Blythyn.

<p>The Year of Legends </p>

Hannah Blythyn AC: 6. Will the First Minister provide an update on how the year of legends will benefit north-east Wales? OAQ(5)0617(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Firstly, our tourism strategy sets out our priorities in supporting the tourism industry, including capital and development funding, along with marketing and promotional opportunities. We know that the Year of Legends provides an opportunity for us to build on that foundation.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, First Minister. As part of the Year of Legends, we are awaiting with great anticipation the winning design for our new Welsh Government-supported installation at Flint Castle. I’m sure everybody in the community is looking forward to this latest legend descending on the shores of the castle, but there was another local legend of old that the constituency and particularly the community of Mold are rightly proud of. The Mold gold cape was found in 1833 by workmen quarrying for stone in a burial mound, and is currently part of the British Museum collection in London. It’s previously left the British Museum to be temporarily exhibited in Wrexham, but it’s never actually made it back to Mold to be temporarily exhibited in the town where it was found. First Minister, as we commemorate and celebrate the Year of Legends, do you share the view of many of my constituents that it would be great to see the gold cape return to be exhibited in the town where it was discovered?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. The gold cape is famous, of course, and I’m sure the people of Mold would like to see the actual gold cape there, rather than it being commemorated in the name of a pub. [Laughter.] It was in Wrexham. The difficulty at the moment, of course, is that there’s nowhere in Mold for the cape to be exhibited, and that is what needs to be resolved first. In order for that to happen, the local authority in Flintshire could look at taking the lead and talking with us as Welsh Government to see what could be done in order to provide a facility with the right atmosphere, in terms of the atmospherics, and in terms of the right security in order to provide a home for the gold cape, even if temporary, in the years to come. We’re more than happy, of course, to work with the local authority and with local people to see how we can move this forward to bring the cape home, and for the people of Mold to be able to see the cape in its home town.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: A good question from the Member there for us in north Wales. First Minister, Visit Britain has launched Where Stories Become Legends, an international film tourism campaign with Warner Brothers, to coincide with the release of the ‘King Arthur’ film, parts of which were filmed in Snowdonia. How is Visit Wales using the Year of Legends campaign to collaborate on this? And what future plans do you have to promote the region of north Wales, home to some of the most dramatic and beautiful landscapes in the world that are available to the film industry and its fans?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, ‘King Arthur’ was a film, if I remember rightly, that we supported as a Government.

Ken Skates AC: Yes.

Carwyn Jones AC: It was a film that we took a stake in. It’s a film that, yes, has been located in Wales and also a film, of course, that has benefited from, I believe, post-production in Wales as well. The Member asked what we have done particularly for the north of Wales, well I can say that just about £0.5 million has been made available in this financial year for projects in the north: so, five projects via the regional tourism engagement fund, totalling £0.25 million, and a further £265,000 via the tourism product innovation fund to support six project across the north as well. I can say that, since April 2013, the tourism investment support scheme has made offers of funding to 48 businesses in the north, totalling nearly £8 million. That’s brought in additional investment of £12.5 million and assisted 551 jobs in terms of them being secured, with another 433 jobs being created.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Whilst it’s quite appropriate that we attract people to celebrate and become more aware of our legends and the stories we have to tell in north-east Wales—to refer back to the original question—there is a significant market also in the north east of Wales, in the north-east of Wales, and, very often, the local people don’t appreciate the history and the assets that we have in that area. So, may I ask, while this project promotes the whole of Wales more widely, shouldn’t the Government, at the same time, do far more to promote our heritage and history at a local level? That happened with the National Trust in my day. The number of visitors increased significantly, and, of course, the number of people who were volunteering and felt ownership of those assets also increased, which strengthened the wider offer within north-east Wales.

Carwyn Jones AC: As part of the project—well, it’s true to say that we never appreciate what’s on our doorstep. As regards the projects I’ve already alluded to, many of those projects are working in order to raise awareness of local history by local residents. And a lot of work, of course, is being done by voluntary organisations also to do that. But, of course, it is vital that we ensure that people know what’s there, and have an interest in their own history so that they can act as ambassadors for their own areas and regions, and ensure that more people come and stay and spend money.

<p>Medical Services in Montgomeryshire</p>

Russell George AC: 7. Will the First Minister make a statement on access to GP medical services in Montgomeryshire? OAQ(5)0621(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We continue to work with the health board and other partners in Wales to take a range of actions to improve access to healthcare services that are safe and sustainable and as close to people’s homes as possible.

Russell George AC: Thank you, First Minister. I’ve been contacted by a parent who has been trying to arrange for a simple medical examination for her daughter at her local surgery in Newtown. This is a requirement in advance of her going abroad to study. Now, the surgery has made the decision not to undertake any further medicals of this nature due to the GP shortage. No other practices in the area are able to also offer an appointment. The parent has even offered to pay. My office has been in contact with the local health board, who are also not able to offer any support.So, as it stands, from my understanding, the only option available now for this young lady to get a medical that she needs to go and study abroad is to pay for it privately, and she would need to go—the nearest area to do this would be somewhere in England. So (1) I’d be grateful if you could offer any advice to my constituent, and (2) if you could offer any update on the shortage of GPs that we see, particularly in mid Wales, which is becoming—I’m sure you would agree also—more of a crisis that we have to deal with.

Carwyn Jones AC: I don’t understand the view taken by the GP practice. What I don’t know, of course, without—. I would invite him to write to me as well, of course, with more details, but GPs don’t provide every service for free. Some services have always been paid for. GPs are sometimes paid through the NHS if, for example, they carry out blood tests. Sometimes, of course, they charge the individual directly—signing for things, quite often. So, I don’t know whether this is a service that would routinely be provided on the NHS or not. But he has raised the issue with me. If he provides me with details, I will, of course, respond.

<p>Staff Well-being within the Public Sector</p>

Angela Burns AC: Good afternoon, First Minister.

Angela Burns AC: 8. What is the Welsh Government doing to promote staff well-being within the Welsh public sector? OAQ(5)0615(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we do work closely with public sector employers and trade unions to promote staff well-being as an essential part of the delivery of good Welsh public services.

Angela Burns AC: You will be aware that almost 8,000 staff members of the NHS in Wales were affected by anxiety, stress, depression, and a number of other psychiatric illnesses, in the year 2015-16, and the trend appears to be the same going forward. Aneurin Bevan Local Health Board created and filled the post of head of employee well-being, and Adrian Neal and his colleagues are making great strides forward in reducing staff absence and improving employee morale.But, First Minister, this well-being position is not filled in all the Welsh health boards. Some created the post and then decided to remove it for budgetary reasons. Others have got the posts, but they are vacant—again, for budgetary reasons. Given the scale of the challenge that we face, and how difficult it is to recruit people into the Welsh NHS, I wondered if you might be able to outline what plans you could have to rectify this issue.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, a health and well-being programme board has been established, which oversees the programme and the collaborative agenda of NHS Wales in respect of improving staff health and well-being and reducing levels of sickness absence. All NHS organisations have achieved, or are working towards, the corporate health standard, and so we would expect all NHS boards to achieve that standard and provide the right level of support for staff, particularly with regard to their own mental health.

<p>The North Wales Growth Deal</p>

Nathan Gill AC: 9. Will the First Minister make a statement on the North Wales growth deal? OAQ(5)0612(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. We continue to press the case for a north Wales growth bid with the UK Government. The reference by the Chancellor to the north Wales growth bid in his recent budget—which seems some time ago now—is a positive step forward, and we trust the UK Government will maintain that commitment.

Nathan Gill AC: Thank you, First Minister. A key part of the north Wales growth deal is Wyfla Newydd, the nuclear power plant that is going to be built on Anglesey, which will create many well-paid jobs—highly skilled—not just on Anglesey but throughout the whole of north Wales. Now, having read through the Labour Party’s manifesto, there is clear support for our nuclear energy sector, but, just days before the general election was called, Labour’s shadow Chancellor vowed to end nuclear power as part of the Labour Government’s first 100 days in office. Now, it is well known, of course, about the fact that Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party, has, for many years, opposed nuclear power. Could you take this opportunity to not only clarify your and your Government’s opinion and goals for nuclear power, but also the Labour Party’s aspirations for the nuclear industry?

Carwyn Jones AC: We are 100 per cent committed to Wylfa Newydd. We have already been working with Wylfa itself and also with skills suppliers in order to make sure that as many local people as possible have the skills that will be required there. It will provide many temporary construction jobs and, importantly, around 600 jobs in the community. There is no wavering in our support for the project.

Darren Millar AC: Firstly, can I thank you, First Minister, for the remarks that you’ve made this afternoon in relation to the attack in Manchester? I’m sure they’ll be words of comfort at this very difficult time for many families. As a Mancunian myself, I’m very familiar with that part of the world, and I know that some of my constituents were actually present at the event, because they have been in touch with me. There’s no doubt that events like this have an impact, not just on the night, for those who have been injured or lost their lives, but, indeed, for many years to come, including a psychological impact, potentially, for those who were present. Many of them, as you’ve already indicated, were, of course, teenagers. Now, as a father of teenagers, I know how important it is that young people receive support in a timely manner when they need it, and I was very pleased to hear that you are considering the establishment of a helpline for any individuals from Wales who may need access to support in the future. Can I just ask you to confirm that there will be that psychological support also—not just in terms of the physical support that might be available, but the psychological support, should it be needed by any of those young people, or, indeed, any of the adults who were attending last night, as well?

Carwyn Jones AC: That’s the intention. The intention is that people can be signposted to organisations that can provide that support in the longer term. It tends to be the case with PTSD, for example, that people don’t see it at the beginning—it develops over time, as people begin to understand the consequences of what might have happened or understand the consequences of what they’ve seen. So, it is hugely important to make sure that that support is available, not just for a week or two, but over the course of time that the individual needs it in order to come to terms with what they’ve witnessed and what they’ve experienced.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: We know that significant sums will be invested in light of this growth bid in north Wales, but the local authorities have come together to create a joint committee, which will oversee that process. But may I ask how you, as a Government, will ensure that these investments do reflect your strategic priorities in north Wales and aren’t led to run in parallel so that everything works together as one effort for economic regeneration in north Wales? Because I’m not really sure where the Government voice is heard within the context of this new joint committee, or other sectors, such as the business sector, higher education and further education in the region, which were prominent parts of the economic ambitions board, but will now have a non-voting role in these new structures.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, as regards the bid itself—for the city deal that’s taken place up until now, it’s the local authorities that are in the lead, and not the Welsh Government. We are part of the process, but they ensure that the governance structure is in place and that they consider regional projects, not just projects that benefit only one county. So, we, of course, want to ensure that the structures are in place. We’re confident that that is the case. We’ve seen the local governments working together, whoever may run those local authorities, and we are confident that the funding will be used in the way in which we would wish to see. And, of course, we will collaborate with local authorities to ensure that our priorities as a Government are secured. There isn’t very much difference between our priorities and the counties’ priorities in ensuring that there is development of benefit to everyone in the region over the years.

Diolch i’r Prif Weinidog.

4. 3. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the leader of the house.

Jane Hutt AC: As Members will be aware, I’ve made several changes to this week’s business. In light of recent tragic events in Manchester, I’ve postponed the oral statement, ‘Plant yn Gyntaf/Children First’, which will be rescheduled in due course. The oral statements on ‘Assessment for Learning—A Distinct Welsh approach’, and the Welsh Government prosecution code, will take place tomorrow afternoon, replacing the individual Member debate, which Business Committee has agreed to postpone. Business for the next three weeks is as shown on the business statement and announcement, found among the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Simon Thomas AC: Can I thank the business Secretary for her statement and just say that, obviously, we will try and co-operate as much as possible in re-arranging the business as necessary, following recent events, and understand very much why the Government has sought to do so? It may be of assistance if I can share with her, and also the Chamber, that we have a debate in Plaid Cymru’s name, tomorrow, on live music, arising out of the campaigns about Womanby Street and Clwb Ifor Bach and so forth. I understand that that petition from that campaign has been very successful and that the Petitions Committee is minded to bring forward their own debate, as a new feature of this Parliament, where petitions from outside can trigger debate on the floor, and, in that light, Plaid Cymru would wish to withdraw tomorrow’s debate in order to facilitate the more wide-ranging, if you like, debate from the Petitions Committee itself, and to ensure that this campaign, which has been very successful and really energised people in Cardiff, can be seen to be reflected on the floor of the Assembly not as a party-political debate, but as one that’s shared by all Assembly Members to contribute to. So, that may loosen up a little bit of time tomorrow, which may assist the business manager in the work that she has to do. Can I also just ask a little more around the Champions League and the effects of the awful events in Manchester? I very much appreciate what the First Minister said, and the commitment that has been made already, through questions around the Chamber, around the preparations for the Champions League. I know that that has been thorough and has been taken on board by the local authorities and those in charge here. We see some of the preparations already outside the Assembly, ready for the numbers of visitors that will be coming here. I hope that she’ll join me in sending out a really strong message that says that people are very welcome in Wales. We want to see everyone here, and they will have a very warm welcome when they come here, and we’re ready for those numbers, and our security service and our police and everyone is ready for that and prepared for it. There is, sadly, nothing new in the fact that we have had a tragic terrorist attack in Manchester. We’ve had similar attacks elsewhere in Europe, as well as in London, of course, and we had to prepare for that. But if it is appropriate for the Government to put forward a written statement updating Assembly Members around the preparations for the Champions League final then that would be very welcome.Also timetabled, I notice, is the long-awaited statement on bovine TB from the Minister for Environment and Rural Affairs. It’s just to ask really whether the Government can say a little more, either by a written statement in advance of that—. Because the Climate Change, Energy and Rural Affairs Committee published its own report on bovine TB this morning, and it would, I think, help us, because there are a couple of weeks to go—I think it’s on 20 June we’re expecting a statement from the Cabinet Secretary. It would be useful to have a response from the Government to that report, either on the day or just before, so that we can have an informed debate and response to the Cabinet Secretary’s statement. If the Government can commit to that in future statements, that would be useful.The final thing I’d like to raise is of a different nature, but it’s come to my attention from Llanelli—a constituent of mine contacted my office. The business manager will know that the Department for Work and Pensions is looking to close several offices throughout Wales. Presumably, any announcement on final decisions on such closures is now under purdah, and is not expected to be made before the general election. However, the reports that I’ve had from people working in the Llanelli office are that preparation is under way for ‘for sale’ signs to go up on that office. Clearly, staff have been alerted to this, and are concerned, and bring those concerns to me. I wanted to ask the Government whether they’d had any indication from Westminster about any final decisions around the office in Llanelli, or indeed the other offices that are affected in Wales, and whether it is a commitment, as far as she knows and she is aware, that no statement can be made until the general election, and whether she is in a position to make any statement on behalf of the Government in response to those concerns from my constituents.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Simon Thomas, for informing us of the outcome of the Petitions Committee decision to propose a debate, and of course, helping that petition to such an extent that it now crosses the threshold. It will be a new development, as you say, for us to debate this, particularly focusing on live music and current local situations. Indeed, following the written statement made by the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs last week on the planning issues, that means there will be one fewer opposition debate tomorrow afternoon.In terms of UEFA and preparation, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure will be making a written statement this week to update on security and transport issues in preparing for UEFA the weekend after next. You of course are aware that, as the First Minister said, he received a security briefing this morning linked to the COBRA discussions, and that indeed will have taken on board the important event that is forthcoming. Again, it’s very important that we make it very clear about the welcome to Wales, and the opportunities, and that we’re here to ensure that people are safe, secure and indeed welcome for that major event for Wales, which will place us again in the world’s eye in terms of our hospitality, our efficiency, our security and indeed our transport links. So, it’s very appropriate anyway for the Cabinet Secretary to make that statement, which he will do. On your third question, yes, the report from the committee has been published in terms of their inquiry into bovine TB, and the recommendations they make and the evidence they took. Indeed, the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs will be making a statement in the very near future in terms of the way forward, and it’s important that it will follow, of course, that committee report. On your fourth question, I think the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children—well, I don’t think he’s aware of being informed by the DWP through his officials that decisions have been made. But I think it’s very important that this is on record today. Clearly, we have official links with DWP and I’m sure our Welsh Government officials will want to clarify the point. I’m sure union engagement, as well, in terms of the impact on staff and their fears and concerns, particularly at this pre-election period—that should be addressed.

Vikki Howells AC: Leader of the house, I am recently dealing with a number of cases whereby people who’ve previously held blue badges for many years have had their application for renewal refused. When I’ve raised this with the local authority I’ve been told it’s because my constituents no longer meet the criteria for eligibility, although in all cases the constituents affected do have a range of serious medical conditions. I understand the Welsh Government is currently reviewing the guidance and application system to see what can be done about people who fall short of the scoring grid. Could we have a statement from the Welsh Government updating us on this review, please?

Jane Hutt AC: I’m glad Vikki Howells has drawn this to our attention, because I think this is an issue that’s probably affecting other constituents of other Assembly Members. Under the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970, the local authority is responsible for issuing blue badges to applicants in their areas, including deciding whether the applicant meets the eligibility criteria. Welsh Government has developed a non-statutory toolkit to assist local authorities in their duties, and in a case where an applicant is close but has marginally failed to meet the criteria, the local authority may choose to refer the case to the independent advisory service, funded by the Welsh Government, for further assessment. An independent medical assessment will be carried out by an occupational therapist who will look at the applicant’s mobility and provide advice to the local authority for them to consider. Welsh Government officials have been working closely with local authorities and the independent advisory service to review their guidance toolkit. It’s going to be republished in the summer. Changes include widening the margin at which applicants can be referred for further assessment and providing further guidance on the kind of evidence to be provided to make it easier for applicants to demonstrate how they meet the criteria.So, the Cabinet Secretary will issue a statement as this guidance is republished, to make sure that Members are aware and understand, and that they can therefore monitor closely and respond to constituents’ concerns.

Bethan Sayed AC: I wanted to ask for a statement, either from the Minister for education or the Minister with responsibility for Welsh language—I’m not sure which is responsible—on the fact that I received a message over social media, along with a number of other Assembly Members, on the fact that Warwick university’s history department didn’t recognise the Welsh language A-level as a qualification to enable students to study at that university. It says:‘Graddau AAA Safon Uwch mewn 3 phwnc, gan gynnwys Hanes.Nid yw’r cynnig yn  cynnwys Cymraeg, Astudiaethau Cyffredinol '.I do believe that that has caused some anger for people in my area and people across the whole of Wales, and I would like to hear whether any study has been carried out by Government to see what universities are doing in that regard, or whether this is isolated to the history department in Warwick. Because I don’t think it’s acceptable for universities to treat a Welsh language A-level as being secondary to other courses. I would welcome any correspondence or communication on that issue.The second question is—and I do declare an interest in this, because my sister is now taking her A-levels at the moment—I’ve received some correspondence from a number of young people who say that, although the exams happen over a lengthy period of time up until the end of July, many people have three examinations on a single day, and they are all two-hour long examinations. There may be time in the timetable to ensure that they shouldn’t have to sit three exams in one day, because that places a huge amount of stress on young people. We know that young people take their studies very seriously and many of the young people who’ve approached me feel under even greater pressure as a result of this. I would like a statement, again, from the education Minister—not that I’m picking on her—in order to ensure that, in future, if there are clashes—. Even if there are two exams in one day, that’s fine, but having three exams on a single day is too much for your people to be able to prepare for, when there is scope within the timetable to ensure that that shouldn’t happen.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Bethan Jenkins. I know the Cabinet Secretary has heard the concerns that have been raised about Warwick university and the alleged lack of recognition of Welsh as an A-level. I know that she’s going to immediately take that back and inquire and we will make sure that the response is clearly published and given not only to the Member but possibly on social media and placed in the library as well.On your second point, in terms of the pressures on young people in having those A-level exams in one day, that again is an operational issue, which I’m sure is affecting a lot of young people and schools and parents, relating to those examining bodies and timetabling. But the point has been made and heard.

I thank the leader of the house.

5. 4. Statement: Consultation on the Proposed Reforms of Taxi and Private Hire Vehicle Licensing

The next item is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on the consultation on the proposed reforms of taxi and private hire vehicle licensing. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make a statement—Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The Welsh Government’s programme for government sets out how we will deliver more and better jobs through a stronger, fairer economy, improve and reform our public services and build a united, connected and sustainable Wales. Our programme for government has been designed to further advance our objectives under the well-being of future generations Act. This requires us to think more about the long term to work better with people, communities and each other, look to prevent problems, and take a more joined-up approach, helping us to create a Wales that we all want to live in now and in the future. This approach is particularly important as we consider how best our plans for improving public transport in Wales are developed and are implemented. An integrated public transport system can and will make a significant contribution to safeguarding the well-being of future generations. We all recognise that our public transport system is key to tackling poor air quality zones, supporting a sustainable and thriving economy and contributing to our ambitions for improving low-emission mobility as part of our efforts to achieve decarbonisation.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Ken Skates AC: On 28 February, Transport for Wales started a second public consultation on the outcomes to be delivered as part of the next Wales and borders franchise. This franchise will deliver the modernisation of the core Valleys lines as part of the south-east Wales metro. It will support the development of the north-east Wales metro and it will also improve our regional railway services across the Wales and borders franchise area. The outcome of this consultation that ended yesterday will further inform the development of the franchise specification that will bring real benefits to passengers across Wales.On the same day that Transport for Wales started the consultation, I made a statement to this Chamber about my vision for reforming the way that local bus services are planned and delivered by local authorities and bus operators in Wales. I announced a public consultation that would continue the policy discussion that I started at the bus summit in January about how we improve local bus services as part of our sustainable and viable integrated public transport system. This consultation ends next week, and I am grateful to all the stakeholders that have contributed to the national discussion. I’ll be publishing an outcome report in the summer about what people have told us and how we should move ahead on making changes. It is essential that our local bus services integrate more effectively with our regional and metro rail services to be delivered as part of the rail franchise.When these planned improvements to rail and bus services are implemented, there will remain communities within our society for which public transport is simply not available or a viable alternative to use of a private motor vehicle. Taxi and private hire services are, therefore, an essential aspect of the transport network here in Wales. Taxis and private hire vehicles provide a vital public service, connecting people to places when alternative public transport services are not available or viable. The contribution that the sector makes to the night-time and tourism economy in many of our communities should not be underestimated. The industry is a crucial component in our ambitions for public transport for Wales. They’re essential for many passengers with disabilities and residents of rural communities, and play an important social role in enhancing the public transport system and facilitating social inclusion. In Wales, the taxi and private hire industry employs about 9,200 licensed drivers, operating more than 5,000 taxis and more than 4,000 private hire vehicles. More than a third of these operate in and around Cardiff and Swansea. Given the importance the sector has in delivering local public transport, it is surprising to me that the main legal framework governing the licensing of taxi services, otherwise known as hackney carriages, has not undergone any significant reform in nearly 200 years. Private hire services legislation is more recent, dating from 1976 in most of England and Wales, and 1998 in London. Nevertheless, even this comparatively modern legislation struggles to keep up with the radical changes that the internet has introduced in the way that customers book private hire services.The piecemeal evolution of the regulation of taxi and private hire services has resulted in a complex and fragmented licensing system. The relationship between taxi and private hire services, commonly known as mini cabs, requiring pre-booking, is not clearly defined. The balance struck between national and local rules lacks an overarching rationale, resulting in duplication, inconsistencies and considerable difficulties in cross-authority enforcement. Mobile phones and the internet enable bookings to be made minutes before the journey is undertaken and have revolutionised both the taxi and private hire trades, yet regulation has failed to keep pace.The outdated legislative framework has become too extensive in some respects, imposing unnecessary burdens on businesses and artificially restricting the range of services available to consumers, and insufficiently comprehensive in other ways, undermining the fundamental goal of protecting not only the travelling public, but safeguarding drivers from exploitation that is becoming more commonplace within the private hire community.The enactment of the Wales Act 2017, and its expected commencement early next year, will for the first time bring the licensing of taxis and private hire vehicles within the competence of the National Assembly for Wales. It is on that basis that I am considering afresh the significant work undertaken by the Law Commission for England and Wales for the reform of the licensing of taxis and private hire vehicles. I am keen to work with the industry, local licensing authorities and users to develop arrangements that may be introduced to Wales to ensure that taxis and private hire vehicles continue to contribute to our ambitions for a connected and sustainable society.So, today, I am pleased to announce that I have asked my officials to begin a further public consultation about how licensing of taxis and private hire vehicles can be reformed and improved here in Wales. This consultation will start soon after the UK general election. My starting point for this consultation is that I agree with a number of the proposals put forward by the Law Commission following its extensive review of the law governing the licensing of this sector. But there are some areas that require some further consideration in terms of their application to Wales. For example, I believe that there is a compelling argument for removing the unhelpful distinction between taxis and mini cabs or private hire vehicles, recognising that the sector in Wales is very different to the way that taxis are perceived and operated in London. Advances in technology have made the process of pre-booking a vehicle before making the journey almost instantaneous. So, we need to consider whether this distinction between taxis and mini cabs, or private hire vehicles, should be retained, or whether there are more advantages in moving to a single regime for taxis and mini cabs.The arrangements proposed by the Law Commission would, if implemented, see the introduction of national standards for all taxis and private hire vehicles. These national standards could be set by the Welsh Ministers to ensure that the quality expectations for taxis and private hire vehicles are universally available to passengers across Wales. But, the power for local licensing authorities to set additional licence conditions where appropriate, in my view, should be retained. Under the Law Commission’s recommendations, local licensing authorities would remain responsible for issuing licences and enforcement for both taxis as well as private hire vehicles. I tend to agree with the Law Commission that public protection demands that novelty vehicles and stretch limousines, for example, are also brought within the scope of the private hire vehicle licensing regime.And, finally, I am keen to make it easier for providers to work across local authority borders, but with the appropriate arrangements in place to ensure that licensing officers have enforcement powers to deal with vehicles and drivers licensed in different areas. We have a responsibility to ensure that there is clarity of understanding and clear roles and responsibilities within the licensing regime to ensure that the quality of service, universally available, is achieved and maintained. Above all, we have a duty to ensure that the licensing arrangement in Wales safeguards the public and prevents the exploitation of the professional drivers that are delivering these very important services across our communities.

Russell George AC: I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his detailed statement today. In 2014, the Law Commission outlined that there was a case to allow local authorities to have flexibility in deciding whether there should be a one-tier system, but I do understand it’s overall recommendation was that the two-tier system, which currently exists in England and Wales, should be retained within a single legal framework for the regulation of taxi and private hire services, because it promotes, of course, consumer choice and provision of a wide range of services. As I understand it, the Welsh Government are minded towards a single-tier system, stating that the difference between taxis and private hire vehicles were meaningless to consumers. Your statement today seems to suggest that you still have a preference for proposals, which seek to implement national standards, which will not distinguish between taxis and private hire companies. With this in mind, can I ask what considerations you have made within the consultation to allow Welsh councils to respond to a localised one- or two-tier option, and, in light of your recent comments about the national standards to the Petitions Committee, what difficulties do you see—what difficulties do you foresee, I suppose—with the UK Government’s standards should they differ from Wales? The Law Commission has also said that different ways in which taxis and private hire vehicles are engaged make different levels of regulations appropriate. So, perhaps you can state how you will guard against the unintended consequences if a single system is introduced, which could lead to over- or under-regulation. Secondly, I understand from speaking to officers at Powys County Council, and from others as well, that there is the potential for cross-border issues with different licensing regimes in England and Wales. So, for example, once licensed, will providers be able to work across England and Wales and be subject to enforcement action by officers of any licensing authority? In its report, the Law Commission outlined significant concerns about the ability of taxis and private hire vehicles to accept bookings outside their local authority boundaries, which have been responded to in part by provisions in the Deregulation Act 2015. How will the Welsh Government be able to reconcile potentially a different operating system over what is a soft border between England and Wales? I’m sure, like me, Cabinet Secretary, you’ll understand the difficulties of working across border, representing a constituency on the border with England. Thirdly, and finally, disabled passengers continue to suffer severe difficulties in obtaining and using taxis and PHV services. I think we can all agree with the overarching aim of seeing an improvement in terms of training for drivers of buses, trains, taxis and private hire vehicles, as well as an end to disabled people being disadvantaged in terms of PHV services. So, I would be grateful for confirmation as to whether the proposed reforms to licensing will include national standards in relation to driver training and vehicle specification.

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to thank the Member for his questions, and I’ll begin with that very last point. Yes, it’s our intention to incorporate within national standards enhanced training for all drivers of taxis and private hire vehicles to ensure that there’s consistency across all services. I think one of the great advantages of our proposals is that it will bring a fares regime that is consistent across all services as well, which, in turn, could help deliver on the vision of the south-east Wales and north-east Wales metros with integrated ticketing, and a fare regime that is understood and clear and simple to appreciate. The Member raised the very important issue of cross-border consistency, and this is, of course, something that is at the forefront of my considerations representing a constituency, like himself, that is right on the Wales-England border. I outlined in my statement how it’s my intention to ensure that providers, to work across local authority borders, have an easier regime to understand and to operate to, but that there should also be appropriate arrangements in place to ensure that licensing officers have enforcement powers to deal with vehicles and drivers licensed in different areas. Now, we can’t wait any longer for a response by the UK Government to the Law Commission’s report. It was published, as the Member outlined, in May 2014, with 84 recommendations, and, despite the convention that the UK Government formally responds to the Law Commission’s reports within a 12-month period, there has yet to be a response. Now, I appreciate that, within 12 months of May 2014, Britain was within a period of a general election. Notwithstanding that, I do believe that there has been sufficient time since the 2015 election to respond to the Law Commission’s report. In the absence of a response, I believe that it is incumbent upon us as Welsh Ministers to ensure that the rights of passengers and the rights of workers in the taxi and private hire vehicle trade are key considerations in our work moving forward. Therefore, I think we should be quite proud that we are at the forefront in the UK of considering new regimes. That said, it would be my hope that the UK Government, in responding to the Law Commission’s report, will also appreciate the recommendations that we are adopting, so that, on a cross-border nature, if the UK Government considers favourably those recommendations made by the Law Commission, then we will have, as I outlined in my statement, a consistent regime and enforcement system that spans not just local authority borders within Wales, but also national borders between England and Wales, and potentially between Scotland and England. The Member also raised the question of the need to ensure that, during the consultation, anybody who wishes to respond has an opportunity to offer opinion and evidence concerning the best way forward as to whether we have a single or two-tier system. I outlined my firm belief that a single-tier system is most suitable for Wales, and the reason that the two-tier system was recommended for retention by the Law Commission, I think, is in no small part whatsoever down to the fact that the London taxi market operates in a very, very different way to that which exists across the rest of the UK. And the Law Commission’s report was therefore heavily swayed by the evidence and the submissions made by the London taxi market. I do believe that the system that operates in Wales is distinctly different to that which operates in London, and therefore it’s my belief that a single-tier system would be best for Wales. Notwithstanding that, we will be considering all responses to the consultation that will begin next month and last three months.

Dai Lloyd AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his very extensive statement on the consultation on the proposed reforms of taxi and private vehicle hire licensing? Obviously, it’s a moot point today because we rarely talk about taxis in this forum, and after the turmoil and carnage of Manchester last night there were several reports of individual taxi drivers, several taxi drivers in fact, just taking people away for free in a common show of humanity. That, I think, deserves recognition, given that we are discussing taxi drivers today. That’s a phenomenal piece of work in response to a dire emergency and common humanity shines through in the face of appalling carnage. Turning to the Cabinet Secretary’s actual statement, I’ll just zone in on the paragraph concerning the enactment of the Wales Act 2017. The Cabinet Secretary says: ‘Its expected commencement early next year will for the first time, bring the licensing of taxis and private-hire vehicles within the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales.’Let me say, first of all, it’s pleasing that we are gaining some powers under the Wales Act 2017 because that’s not a universal feeling, I have to say, on these benches. By and large, we’ve lost powers. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware there’s a huge list of reserved matters now, reserved to Westminster: 193 such matters and growing. As well as that, all the matters relating to those reserved powers as well, and also to cap it all—like a triple lock if you like—the vestigial Henry VIII powers that mean any Minister of the Crown can do what they want in terms of changing legislation passed by this place. So, remembering all of that—and that’s basically anything to do with employment law, industrial relations, and enforcement is now a reserved matter and we can do nothing about it—how confident is the Cabinet Secretary that he can bring about meaningful legislation in this field to stop the exploitation of taxi drivers, for example, and also make sure that taxi drivers are obliged to take people on even short journeys as a public protection measure? Diolch yn fawr.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his questions and his contribution? I most heartily agree. I think taxi drivers and private-hire vehicle drivers last night in Manchester showed a consistent and selfless and altruistic approach. I’d like to put on record my thanks to them for showing the industry across the UK just how valuable they are to our country. It’s my belief that we are making the most of those powers that we are acquiring through the Wales Act and this set of proposals concerning taxis and private hire vehicles will make an enormous difference to many, many people across Wales. It will make a significant difference to those passengers, who until now perhaps have not benefitted from a fair regime for taxi fares and private-hire vehicle fares. One of the points that was raised by Russell George was the need to ensure that there is adequate training provided to all drivers. This will ensure that that happens through the introduction of national standards. It will also help address the challenge that’s been presented to the industry with modern technology and particularly with the exploitative nature of some so-called ‘modern’ working practices. We are all aware of the GMB’s case concerning the exploitation of Uber drivers, well this set of proposals aims to address that head on. In order to do that, it will require licensing authorities to carefully monitor and to carefully enforce those standards that will be introduced by Welsh Ministers and which can be built upon by those authorities themselves. I do believe that, across Wales, we’ve got licensing authorities that want to ensure that the best services are provided for passengers and that workers are protected. The set of proposals that we’ve outlined will ensure that they have the tools to do that.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I actually agree with Dai Lloyd and Ken Skates that the role played by the taxi drivers in Liverpool and Manchester was absolutely exemplary. Most taxi drivers are a reflection of the best of the culture of the communities where they work and that was seen last night.However, I think that, although this is a service operated by private companies, the public regards it as a public service, and in that regard, they expect that they will be protected by ensuring that those who are given the privilege to operate as taxi drivers, mini cab drivers or Uber drivers, will have been screened to ensure that there’s nobody there who is going to be a risk to their passengers.I was appalled to read recently that in Rochdale, of all places, there are still drivers with criminal records of violence and sexual assault apparently still operating as licensed taxi drivers. That is of considerable concern, and I hope that this consultation will enable us to ensure that those who are licensed to drive a taxi, or a private hire vehicle or an Uber, will have gone through this rigorous enhanced screening process, similar to teachers or people working with vulnerable adults or children. I’m not at all averse to the rehabilitation of offenders, but we need to consider every application on its merits and I would not expect people to be licensed who have been convicted of driving without a licence or insurance, or indeed driving dangerously, or having recently been convicted of a violent offence or a sexual assault. Because there is a privilege involved in taking a passenger home, when the passenger is on their own with that individual, and we need to know that there are safeguards in place to ensure that they are not falling prey, as victims of crime.We need to ensure that taxi firms are running a tight ship, that they know where their drivers are and that they know what they’re up to and can be held accountable, if anybody’s using a taxi service as a front for drug dealing or trafficking or other illegal activities. Because it is a privilege, and therefore we need to ensure that a high standard is being maintained. So, like Dai Lloyd, I want to also ensure that once somebody has said they are available for hire, they’re not discriminating against people, either because they have a dog in tow, or because they’ve got a wheelchair, or because they only want to go a short journey, because those are the terms of trade. They have to make themselves available to all comers, unless, of course, these people are so drunk or so violent that it would be a risk for them to go inside the taxi.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for her very important points? It was brought to our attention recently in Southend that licences were refused to some drivers who then went on to Transport for London and obtained a licence from them and are now operating in Southend, outside of the Transport for London jurisdiction. Uber, who are not allowed to issue licences for places such as Reading, Hatfield and many other areas, are taking bookings and plying for work in those areas. This demonstrates that the law has become unworkable, because firms like Uber are operating with impunity and taking fares from areas where they are not licensed. Many local licensing authorities feel powerless to do anything. So, there is a very clear need for national, enforceable standards and regulations. I don’t believe, Deputy Presiding Officer, that people would get on a bus or board a plane, or a train for that matter, without trusting that the people behind the controls were properly licensed and who had the correct knowledge and proper safeguarding checks, as Jenny Rathbone mentioned. It’s my firm belief that deregulation would be a race to the bottom, but that race has actually been achieved, and Government now needs to take notice and bring about the national changes that are required to protect the travelling public and drivers of taxis and private hire vehicles. We are determined to take action, and it would be very beneficial to the rest of the UK, and indeed to Welsh citizens, if the UK Government could follow our lead in responding to the Law Commission’s report and make the necessary changes across England as well.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks to the Minister for his statement today. You referred in your statement to the rapid technological changes in the ways in which passengers can order taxis these days. You didn’t specifically mention Uber in your statement, but of course you did then talk about Uber in response to one of the contributors. It’s a somewhat difficult issue. Yes, many drivers are worried about the impact of Uber on the way in which they do their business and on their livelihood generally. On the other hand, I have had people telling me as passengers that they view it as a welcome development. So, you have to, to some extent, balance these varying viewpoints. I wasn’t totally sure how ultimately you would view Uber and how it fits into the licensing framework that you see in Wales and I wondered if you could clarify that, and also with regard to the point Dai Lloyd made about the possible limitations on legal competence relating to employment law that your Government has under the Wales Act.Another issue that you looked at in your statement was effective integrated transport; that’s obviously one of the Government’s aims. Sometimes we do have railway stations with no taxi rank serving them, so there is a fairly erratic provision of taxi ranks at railway stations in Wales, as elsewhere. For instance, Pontypridd—in recent years they don’t have, any more, any provision for taxis outside the train station. The rank is now in town, which is a considerable distance away for immobile people, so it’s not particularly helpful. My office has been in touch with Arriva about this issue, and their response is that they didn’t want provision of taxis at the front of the station—that’s on land that they own—because it’s been a safety issue in the past, with people turning up late at night, probably off the last train from Cardiff, and staggering across the road. So, yes, that’s a safety issue, clearly, but does the Government have any intention to standardise in any way the provision of taxis at railway stations? It seems to me that in the case of Pontypridd there may be a case for having some provision there, despite the safety aspect.Dai Lloyd mentioned fleetingly the short fares problem that has been an issue in Cardiff that was highlighted in the local press. We did have problems with young women late on Saturday nights. There were a couple of cases of sexual assault and we then had the issue of the problem of women walking home alone, sometimes in a less than sober state, and they were unable to get taxis in some cases because they lived only a short distance away from the city centre. This is covered, of course, by licensing regulations, but the problem is how to enforce these regulations and how to ensure that drivers do take these short fares.Another problem that has arisen—well, I can’t say it’s a problem—a suspected problem in Cardiff in recent years has been the aspect of whether the badge holder is actually the person who is licensed to drive the vehicle. So, that’s another one that’s covered by current licensing requirements, but, again, how do we make sure that the licensing authority effectively enforces these regulations?I was pleased that Russell George mentioned the Petitions Committee’s recent inquiry into the problems of disabled people accessing taxis, and you yourself touched on the fact that you are going to be looking at strengthening the training procedures, so there is going to be some sort of standardised training for the drivers in dealing with disabled people. Because that was something that came out of the inquiry very strongly, that disabled people did feel, quite often with taxi drivers, they were dealing with people who hadn’t been adequately trained to deal with them. The other aspect that came out relating to taxis was a lack of fittings—a lack of taxis that were fitted with the right facilities to deal with disabled people. So, that is another thing, maybe, that you could enlighten us on now. Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Gareth Bennett for his questions and observations? He makes a number of important points, and I very much welcome the petition that was submitted by Whizz-Kidz concerning access to public transport, with a particular focus on taxis and private hire vehicles. I gave evidence recently to the Petitions Committee, where I outlined how I expected change to be delivered. And the proposals outlined today are part of a package of measures aimed at enhancing the passenger experience, particularly for disabled children, disabled passengers, but for the general public as a whole.I go back to my point earlier that existing legislation is two centuries’ old, and, whilst technological change is fantastic and should be embraced, we also need to make sure that legislation keeps apace with technological change as well. Uber offers choice and convenience—of that there is no doubt. It’s a fantastic new service and entrant to the market. But, the benefits of Uber should not come with the high price of driver exploitation, and for that reason we do need to update legislation. It’s absolutely vital—not just for passengers, but for drivers as well.National standards should apply to all drivers of vehicles, and to all vehicles on the roads, regardless of whether they’re taxis or mini cabs, because all passengers should expect the same consistency of service. Many people who use taxis and mini cabs might not know the difference between them, and the different regimes, the different licensing issues. It’s my view that people shouldn’t need to bear that in mind and consider those differences before getting into a vehicle; they should have confidence on getting inside a taxi or a private hire vehicle, knowing that they will pay a fair fee, and that they will have a standard of service that’s consistent across the trade.The Member raised the point of taxi ranks at railway stations. Of course, rail infrastructure, including, in many incidences, train stations, is the responsibility of UK Government. And we’ve consistently argued for devolution of infrastructure in that regard, because we have seen infrastructure in Wales historically underfunded. That said, in those areas where we are taking on responsibility, such as in the south-east Wales metro area, the core Valleys lines, we would wish to see appropriate service provision at new stations, if we’re going to attract investment for taxi vehicles, private hire vehicles, for bicycles, and for parking as well. We see the service of taxis and private hire vehicles as being critical to the vision of a metro service that is fully integrated, and, therefore, provision such as taxi ranks are absolutely vital.In terms of passengers not being able to access taxis or private hire vehicles, the changes that have been proposed would also enable licensing authorities to limit the number of licences that are issued, so that, in any given area, there is an appropriate number of vehicles available, working potentially on a regional basis, to ensure that, on a cross-border basis, local authorities across a region can have confidence knowing that there are sufficient drivers and sufficient vehicles available for the general public.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome the statement. And can I add my agreement with what Dai Lloyd and Jenny Rathbone said about the action of the taxi driver and private hire drivers in Manchester?Like many other people, I have friends and relatives working as taxi and private hire drivers, which is not surprising, considering the huge number of people who are employed in that industry. In many areas, taxis and private hire vehicles are the only public transport. They’re an essential part of the transport network; without them, many people could not travel after 6 o’clock in the evening or on a Sunday.But most people don’t distinguish between hackney cabs and private hire vehicles. They book what they term a ‘taxi’, which they use generally to cover both types, and a vehicle turns up. And most people don’t, and I include myself in that, go and check whether it’s a taxi or a private hire—I ordered it, it mentions my name when it stops outside and I get in it. So, I think that the distinction between the two has become very blurred and as the Cabinet Secretary said earlier, the mobile phone has done it because you used to have to pre-book before you went, phone up and say ‘I need—’, but now you can book just before you’re ready to leave. Can I also welcome the public consultation?Can I talk about cross-border licensing? Historically, lots of vehicles have been licensed in Powys and worked in Swansea, and the Cabinet Secretary said earlier in an answer to Gareth Bennett about having regional working. That’s fine with Neath Port Talbot and Swansea, but when you bring Powys in, dare I say it, the top end of Montgomeryshire isn’t part of the Swansea region, but Ystradgynlais is part of it. So, there are difficulties in defining what a region is and there are concerns that people have been licensing in Powys and using them in Swansea, where Swansea has had no control over them and, perhaps more importantly, they’ve had no control over the number of vehicles in use in Swansea because they’ve been licensed in Powys. And I use the word ‘Swansea’, I could say ‘Neath Port Talbot’ in exactly the same way because they’re equally as affected. So, I’ve got two questions. Will the Government consider producing enforceable national standards and a national charge? My understanding is that it’s cheaper to license in Powys than it is in Swansea, therefore people do so. And also the standards that you need in Powys are different to those in Swansea, and therefore it’s easier to license, so people are making that decision that is not necessarily beneficial for those who are interested in taxi provision within Swansea. On the Petitions Committee, yes, we took a lot of evidence, including from you, Cabinet Secretary, regarding taxis and there will be a report that will hopefully be coming before this Assembly at some stage in the future. The only thing I would raise from it is: are you considering setting quotas within the large taxi firms for the numbers that can take wheelchairs? In Swansea, there is one taxi firm/co-operative that has about 180 to 200 taxis. I think when you get to firms of that size, actually asking them to have 5 per cent or 10 per cent being able to take people in wheelchairs, I don’t is unreasonable. So, will you look at actually setting quotas, certainly for the firms with more than 10 taxis?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Mike Hedges for his two questions and for the contribution that he’s made to this discussion? There are 9,200 drivers with licences operating across Wales. There are many more people who are employed in the sector, whether it be as telephone operators or within human resources of the larger firms. So, it is an important contributor to the Welsh economy, particularly to the night-time economy, and for that reason I think it’s important that we do give it sufficient time and consideration to ensure that there are high-quality standards applied right across the length and breadth of Wales. And the Member is absolutely right: I touched on it earlier that many people will not distinguish between what a taxi is and what a minicab is. There are 5,000 taxis that operate across Wales and there are 4,000 minicabs. Many people will just refer to one or all as a taxi or taxis, and so it’s important that those national standards are introduced across all of the vehicles.In terms of regional working and the first question the Member asked, yes, but it will be up for consultation. I would ideally seek to have a consistent approach taken to the charging for national standards and licensing of all drivers, and this is something that should be considered as part of the consultation that will begin on 12 June, because I think regardless of whether you’re in Swansea or in Powys, you should have a very clear and transparent regime that is consistent across local authority areas. In regard to the second question and the provision for wheelchairs and whether quotas should be set, particularly for those companies that operate a minimum number of vehicles, again, we want to work with both the sector—with the industry—and with passengers and with user groups, and so as part of the consultation we’ll be considering any views that are expressed in this regard.

Finally, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, just with reference to the consultation and this issue of consistency, I’m wondering whether you might consider including questions about the freedom of cab drivers/taxi drivers to take responsibility for their own decisions on the maintenance of those cabs—namely, that they should be free to go to any local garage, provided it’s reputable and corresponds with any requirements that the local authority might reasonably place on them, in order for that maintenance work to be done, rather than being compelled to use the local authority’s own maintenance section, if you like, where, of course, they have no control over the cost. And then further, that licensing authorities might be required to expressly explain why, or whether, they require drivers to have maintenance checks more frequently than the standard minimum. I have no objection to them doing that, but perhaps the drivers themselves would like to know why they’re being asked to go for maintenance four times a year rather than two, just by way of example. Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Suzy Davies for her questions, and say, essentially, that the introduction of national standards is aimed at ensuring that vehicles are of a consisting quality right across Wales? And so, whether it’s twice a year or four times a year, I think what’s crucially important is that vehicles are maintained properly and to a very clear and transparent minimum standard based, not just necessarily on how many times a year a car is maintained, but crucially on the number of miles that it’s travelled in any given period. So, as part of the consultation, I would hope that we’ll have views expressed concerning maintenance schedules, but it’s my view that there should be a very consistent approach taken to vehicle maintenance across Wales. In terms of where vehicles should and can be maintained, and the potential freedom of licensed drivers to maintain them at different garages that are not necessarily owned, operated or endorsed by local authorities, again, I’d very much welcome observations and comments on this particular point. It’s my view that the maintenance standards should be based not necessarily on the provision of maintenance services by certain outlets or service providers, but on minimum standards that are expected, and so, provided that a maintenance garage is registered as meeting those minimum requirements, I think it offers opportunities for a more competitive environment for garages for operate in.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

6. 5. Statement: Plant yn Gyntaf / Children First

Item 5 has been postponed.

7. 6.& 7. Statement: Assessment for Learning—A Distinct Welsh Approach, and Statement: Consultation on the Welsh Government Prosecution Code

And items 6 and 7 have been moved to tomorrow’s agenda. Therefore, we move to the debate on social prescribing.

8. 8. Debate: Social Prescribing

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport to move that motion. Vaughan Gething.

Motion NDM6314 Jane HuttTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes that social prescribing is an important form of intervention that is already used across Wales;2. Considers priorities for the further promotion of social prescribing across Wales; and3. Notes Welsh Government commitments to trial a national approach to social prescribing linked to mental health.

Motion moved.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m happy to move the motion on the paper before us today. As all of us recognise, our health and well-being depend on many factors: family, relationships, work, play, housing, education and money, to name but a few. The ways in which we manage when our health is affected are numerous. We know that we often feel better after a walk in the park, or socialising with friends, yet often our first port of call when we feel unwell is to see a doctor. A report from Citizens Advice estimates that a fifth of GP time is spent on primarily social problems. It is not always possible for GPs to fully explore the personal circumstances or social determinants that may have triggered the attendance, resulting, on some occasions, in an over-reliance on medical intervention. In Wales we have a vast array of non-clinical community services that offer real health and well-being benefits, and these services and activities are, of course, diverse in their nature. They range from rambling groups and befriending support, to debt counselling and parenting classes. These types of activity all support and work alongside clinical care, or even act as an alternative to medication, and the benefits of community-based support and activities can be numerous. For example, they can lead to improvement in physical health; reductions in the symptoms of anxiety or depression; the acquisition of learning, new interests and skills; a reduction in social isolation and loneliness; and, of course, increased sociability and community skills. And all of these things can lead to increased self-esteem, confidence and empowerment. People who benefit from these services often go on to act as volunteers themselves, increasing community capacity and resilience. People and professionals may not be aware, though, of the potential health and well-being benefits of these services, or how to access them in the first place. I should indicate at this point that I’m happy and the Government will support the Conservative Party’s amendment, noting the King’s Fund definition of social prescribing as‘a means of enabling GPs, nurses and other primary care professionals to refer people to a range of local, non-clinical services.’But, that said, I don’t think we should overly worry about definitions at this point, especially ones that look through the lens of the national health service rather than the person who needs care and support, including, of course, the care and support they can access for themselves. Social prescribing really is simply a term for a mechanism that links people with their community services and opportunities that should help them to improve their general health and well-being, but usually recognised social prescribing schemes enable the referral of an individual to a link worker to work together with them to agree a non-clinical social prescription to improve their health and well-being.A survey carried out on behalf of Nesta found that four in five GPs think social prescriptions alongside medical prescriptions should be available from GP surgeries. They say it would allow them to concentrate on the patient’s medical problems and treatment rather than the social issues that, often, they can do little about. As the start of our motion notes, a variety of social prescribing or community referral schemes already exist or are in development across Wales. They’re an important intervention in their own right and can help support people to take responsibility for their own health by accessing that community-based support, and reduce reliance on statutory services.Of course, the national exercise referral scheme is one of the best known of such schemes. It’s a Welsh Government-funded scheme delivered by Public Health Wales, and it’s been developed to standardise exercise referral opportunities across all local authorities and health boards here in Wales. The scheme will successfully support clients with a chronic condition or who are at risk of developing chronic disease. Locally, through primary care clusters, there is evidence of an investment in social prescribing models based on roles that help people to assess their well-being needs and agree with them what local care and support will help to meet those needs. In Torfaen, for example, social prescribers are located in GP surgeries and receive referrals from anyone experiencing a social issue that is impacting on their physical or mental health. The patient has the opportunity to tell their whole story, sometimes for the first time, and to work with a social prescriber to decide how best to resolve those issues. After the recognised success of the north Torfaen social prescriber, the scheme was extended to south Torfaen in January this year. Another example is local area co-ordination in Swansea that seeks to reduce the pressure on statutory services by fostering local relationships and assistance. The programme works with individuals, families, and carers of any age, and enables them to achieve their idea of a good life. That, of course, will differ for different people and communities. The programme provides information and advice to anyone who accesses it. It also provides more in depth, one-to-one, input to people who might be older, disabled, or have mental health problems or be excluded in some way. There are, of course, other examples across Wales of programmes that link people to the local, non-clinical services they need.As the motion indicates, we’ll continue to consider the priorities for the further promotion of social prescribing across Wales, because access to these services needs to be more systematic and seen as a normal part of our approach to health and well-being—

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Would the Cabinet Secretary give way?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, of course.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his recent visits to the Bridgend area and the ABMU area, but also to the social prescribing that he’s seen working within the clusters in the lower Llynfi valley and the gateway to the Valleys. But also, in the Llynfi valley, he was seeing other networks within the community, along with the Spirit of Llynfi Woodland, along with local schools, along with the six local GPs—but it’s integrated into the local community, and it’s great to see, I think he’d agree, the innovative way in which all partners locally, not just the GPs, but every other partner, have taken on this idea of social prescribing for the well-being of their communities.

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, it’s a good example of the range of services that exist right across the country—local opportunities and how people are linked to those opportunities to improve their general health and well-being, and not a reliance on medication and medical intervention. It’s also a good example of the way we de-medicalise the service and, in particular, the way that healthcare support workers and other community-based workers have been really important in getting people to actually get active and get involved in their community, to take more ownership of their own choices in a way that is enjoyable for them and appropriate and local.Trying to make this work more systematically is something that Dr Richard Lewis has undertaken in his role as the national professional lead for primary care in the Welsh Government. People in the Chamber will know him from his former role with the BMA, and he’s continuing to champion the role of well-being services and the need for more systematic access and referral. The future generations commissioner has also facilitated a round-table discussion with stakeholders on behalf of Dr Lewis last autumn and that’s generated a lot of enthusiasm and discussion. The challenge now, over this next year, is how we roll out what we hope will be a more consistent and effective approach. But, within this Welsh Government, we’re committed to supporting stakeholders to share learning and good practice. So, in March, the Welsh Government sponsored a Mid Wales Health Collaborative conference. That event brought outdoor sector colleagues together with healthcare professionals to discuss the positive health and well-being benefits of outdoor activity, and increase awareness of the benefits of using green spaces. So, it is important to continue to develop the evidence base of what exists, and also what works. And the Welsh Government has, therefore, commissioned a review of the principles of sustainable community-based volunteering to tackle loneliness and social isolation among older people. And that will focus on models of best practice and the impact that they have had. The research findings will be published in September and used by health boards, local authorities, the third and community sectors to inform the development of further community-led volunteer models. To help people find the right care at the right time and in the right place—often with the right person and the right service—the Welsh Government is continuing to work to co-ordinate the development of a single virtual directory of services for health and social care in the third and independent sectors. The directory will be used by both the public and professionals. It will underpin the new local authority information, advice and assistance services, and the 111 telephone and website service, and it will include the wide range of services available in local communities and explain how people can access that care and support. In ‘Taking Wales Forward’, the Welsh Government committed to launching a Wales well-being bond to drive forward healthier lifestyles. The social prescribing agenda aligns closely to the aims of the well-being bond, which will look to take forward innovative health and well-being projects. We’re currently working closely with our stakeholders on the best way to achieve this. And, so, I say this generally, because I would welcome the views of Assembly Members on what further action is needed at national level to promote well-being services, and I welcome your views and ideas on what you think the priorities should be. And a number of Members will have their own local experience. For example, I know there may be Members who want to talk about Valleys Steps, which is engaging in Cwm Taf, a year into a relatively successful approach. So, the views of Members and wider stakeholders will lead into the Welsh Government’s commitment to trial a national approach to social prescribing in mental health. That should help us to take this work forward. In accordance with our ‘Taking Wales Forward’ commitment, I’ll begin a pilot on social prescribing this December—or by this December. It will be aimed specifically at improving the mental health offer and the support for people with low to moderate mental health issues. The evidence base around social prescribing is limited, but growing. By funding a pilot, we think we’ll contribute to the evaluation of the role of social prescribing in Wales, and investigate the factors that make it most effective. The pilot will add to the excellent work already taking place in Wales, and we’re now engaging with stakeholders to work up proposals for the pilot scheme. I’ll make further announcements about the development of the pilot scheme and the well-being bond after the summer, but I look forward to hearing Members’ contributions to today’s debate.

Thank you very much. I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Angela Burns to move the amendment tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Angela.

Amendment 1—Paul DaviesAdd as a new point at end of motion: Notes the Kings Fund definition of Social Prescribing.

Amendment 1 moved.

Angela Burns AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m very grateful to the Government for bringing forward this incredibly interesting topic, and I formally move the amendment tabled in the name of Paul Davies. We on this side of the Chamber support the general principles of this debate, and we’ve brought forward our amendment because we believe that social prescribing has no firm definition, a point brought forward by the NHS Confederation, for one, and, of course, they represent the health boards, so it’s very important that they should feel very comfortable with this going forward. And we feel that the King’s Fund have come up with a clear way of setting out in very simple terms what it means, and they refer to it as:‘a means of enabling GPs, nurses and other primary care professionals to refer people to a range of local, non-clinical services.’And, of course, the King’s Fund definition very much follows the direction of travel that we have here in Wales about asking people to start to take control of their own health, to participate, to be participants in their health agenda, and to be participants in their lives going forward. The King’s Fund very much identify that there is a range of social and economic factors that will allow patients, and need patients, to be treated in a holistic way. We definitely are not saying that the King’s Fund definition should be ‘the’ definition. We just want to see it as a benchmark—it’s what the English NHS have looked at; it’s what the Scottish NHS have looked at—because we need to have somewhere where we can start developing our own version of social prescribing, and I’m delighted that you’re going to be funding a trial to go forward on how social prescribing works.You’ve already said about the positive impacts. I’m not going to rehearse all those arguments, but I know, as a committee, the Health and Social Care Committee are looking at loneliness and isolation in older people, and this is something that social prescribing might really be able to help. I know that my colleague Mark Isherwood will be talking in a while about co-production and about the need to bring on board third parties in order to deliver social prescribing. But I just particularly wanted to cleave to one of the points of your original motion where you say ‘considers’; you would like us to consider priorities for further promotion of social prescribing, and I would like to make two suggestions to you. How can the Welsh Government encourage a greater roll-out of social prescribing to young people? Throughout Wales, we have a significant number of young people who are in a very dark place: they’ve got eating disorders, they are self-harming. Some end up in a place so dark that their only alternative is to take their own lives. I represent a constituency that has seen a fair number of suicides from young people in the last couple of years. We know from evidence that, if you can engage people in areas like drama, exercise, art therapy, music therapy—very, very important ways of being able to perhaps bring someone back as they start that walk toward the cliff—if we can identify those people and get them before they’ve gone too far down that path, I would be really interested to see if we can start bringing this whole social prescribing agenda much closer to younger people as well, and not merely see it as reserved for either the elderly or for those in highly deprived areas. I’d also wonder, as my second point, taking this forward: will the Welsh Government consider other professionals to be part of the social prescribing team—not just health professionals, but people such as school counsellors, or additional leaning needs co-ordinators? Because, as we all know, we’ve got enormous pressures on our mental health services. Children and adolescent mental health services are stuffed to the gunnels, they can’t turn around, and, if you have a school counsellor in a secondary school who’s talking to a young person who may be struggling with, for example, grief, because somebody they love desperately has died, that person should be able to socially prescribe a route for that young person to perhaps get to somewhere like Cruse or some other bereavement organisation. If they identify a child who’s starting to self-harm at about 12 years old, 13 years old, and those first tell-tale slashes across the tops of the arms appear, can they then pick up that child and refer them straightaway to some kind of therapy group, a counselling session, one of the third-sector providers that we need to engage with to make social prescribing a success? I just think that if we can perhaps broaden it out to other trained professionals, but in other fields, we might be able to alleviate some of the backlog or bottleneck that happens when you go into a doctor’s surgery, because they are already under immense pressure, and we can bring more people in in a truly productive way to actually start to produce the solution for people who are desperately in need. I’d be very grateful, Cabinet Secretary, if you would think about those two ideas and perhaps consider them as part of your motion here today. But we absolutely support this motion.

Dai Lloyd AC: I’m pleased to take part in this very important debate on social prescribing.Now, as young doctors over the decades, we’re all taught that there are four aspects to the health of a patient: yes, physical, psychological, but also not forgetting social and spiritual aspects. Remembering all of those influences on the health of people directs us to think about what makes people ill in the first place and makes us think about the barriers that work against their recovery. I remember complaining to the local authority, many years ago now, as a conscientious GP, about the condition of housing of my patients, which was affecting their health, and those complaints were completely ignored. This is one of the reasons why I stood for the council in the first place. As a county councillor then, not as a doctor, I got answers to my complaints about the condition of housing and a plan to improve the situation. That’s what my understanding is, basically, of social prescribing—that GPs and nurses in the community can refer people to projects that tackle their illness, looking at the bigger picture of their health in its entirety, referring people, therefore, to the voluntary sector, most often, such as arts activities, volunteering, gardening, cooking, healthy eating advice and a wide range of sporting activities, such as walking. One of the easiest things to do is to just walk more. I always preach in this place about the 10,000 steps that we need to walk every day—walking. Keeping fit is just as good as antidepressant medication when the depression is not so severe.The aim of social prescribing is to fill a vacuum in many aspects of society, with isolation and loneliness increasing—that’s why we are holding this inquiry as a health committee—despite all of our computers and the internet, because we recognise there is more to the recovery of our patients than simply physical issues. Many years ago, our chapels and churches were very active here in Wales, with hundreds of people attending every Sunday, and some meetings being held every night of the week too, with a full and broad range of activities. Such close-knit communities were naturally an assistance to many people who were suffering depression and loneliness, but things changed and we need solutions to the same spiritual requirements today. Very often, as a GP, I feel a little like a minister or a vicar in advising my patients, but forgetting the social and spiritual aspects, and focusing only on the physical, the tablets and the surgery is also real neglect, which can undermine the recovery of our patients. We look forward to enhancing social prescribing—and we support the Government in this regard—and tackling or getting to grips with evidence of its effectiveness despite how difficult it is to get hold of that evidence. Thank you very much.

Jenny Rathbone AC: It’s good to hear from a GP who is reflective on their behaviour, because far too often, I’m afraid, some GPs have reached for the script, rather than other solutions to people’s mental distress.Last night, I spent quite a lot of time running around trying to contact people who were yet to register to vote in order to beat the midnight deadline. Many were delighted to be reminded that they needed to get registered and I was successful in that regard. But I also met other people who disturbed me quite a lot. I’ve met them before. These are people who say, ‘No, I’m not interested in registering to vote; I’m absolutely not interested in voting because they’re all the same, whatever happens, there’ll be no difference to my life’. These are people who are so far away from engaging with society and making any sort of positive contribution that it’s really quite disturbing. That is potentially quite dangerous as well. These are not people who are busy working hard to make ends meet for their family; they’re generally people who have completely fallen out of the workforce and, in some cases, will have no more than a cursory acquaintance with the workforce throughout their lifetime. I’m not a liberal on this matter. I do not think we should tolerate people living off the state and not being required to contribute anything back. It’s bad for them and it’s bad for the whole of society.We, of course, have to support people who fall out of the workplace because of some personal crisis. One in four of us will undergo a significant mental illness in our lifetime and employers are not always adept or, indeed, sympathetic to the situation. Losing your job or having a baby can mean you’re out of the workforce for a considerable time and, not surprisingly, people lose their self-confidence, in some cases become agoraphobic, unable to tolerate being outside in open spaces or in unpredictable situations. In other scenarios, as the Cabinet Secretary has described, people end up using out-of-hours services as a prop for their pain, which is neither appropriate for actually helping them feel better about themselves—but is also clogging up emergency services for those who do need them. So, I was very interested to attend the frequent attenders multidisciplinary team that’s operating across Cardiff and the Vale. They look at the top 20 attenders in accident and emergency, out-of-hours and the GP surgeries for that month, and they get prescribed tailored services to meet their particular needs. It is really very, very impressive what the outcomes are: 80 per cent of these people get back on their feet and resume their normal existence and are no longer an inappropriate burden on emergency services.It’s Communities First that often takes the lead on getting people referred to them. They lay on well-being courses, confidence building, living life to the full, social support networks—whether it’s gardening or cookery clubs. Generally, under the King’s Fund definition, there’s often a link worker involved, and I suppose one of the key questions for the Government is really: what will happen once Communities First fades away, and who are going to be the link workers who need to be there to guide the individual through social situations that they find difficult, and to support the rest of the people involved in that social group to know that there will be support available if things become difficult? I think Angela Burns has made some interesting comments about the role of the third sector in this regard, but there does need to, clearly, be statutory services having some oversight over this as well. I just wanted, lastly, to state my concern about the challenges facing young people at the moment. The statistics I received yesterday from some of the employment link workers working in Communities First areas are really quite frightening. In Cardiff north and east there are 166 year 11 young people who are 16 and are about to do whatever exams they’re going to do—they have no destination next year. They do not yet know where they’re going to be next year, and we need to ensure that they’re not NEETs. And a further word of warning is that there are 86 people from the last cohort who would be year 12s if they were still in education who are completely unaccounted for. We do not know what is happening to these people. Hopefully, some of them are gainfully employment, but others are completely missing. So, we need to roll out social prescribing to ensure that everybody is given the opportunity to make a contribution and is gradually being moved towards enabling them to stand on their own two feet.

Mark Isherwood AC: Social prescribing is a core element of the co-production revolution, and the fact that the Welsh Government has tabled this debate shows that we’ve come a long way since I first led an Assembly debate on co-production to a lukewarm response. This is about moving from the medical model, which sees illness or disability as the problem, to the social model of disability and the right to independent living, emphasising that people are disabled by society, not themselves; that we must work together to tackle the barriers to access and inclusion for all; and that everyone must be allowed independence, choice and control in their lives. This is about doing things differently, moving from a needs-based approach to strength-based development—to helping people in communities, young and old, identify the strengths they already have in order to tackle the root problems preventing them from reaching their potential. As the Welsh NHS Confederation states, engaging the public and patients in co-production means developing and implementing a national programme with an agreed timescale across Government, which identifies actions for all public services to take to engage the public and patients in living healthier lives. The King’s Fund definition referred to says that social prescribing or community referral is a means of enabling GPs, nurses and other primary care professionals to refer people to a range of local, non-clinical services. As they say, this is designed to support people with a wide range of social, emotional or practical needs and many schemes are focused on improving mental health and physical well-being. This can involve a variety of activities, which are typically provided by voluntary and community sector organisations, including volunteering, arts activities, group learning, gardening, befriending, cookery, healthy eating advice and a range of sports and physical activity, involving a link worker, as Jenny indicated, who works with people to access local sources of support.A study into a social prescribing project in Bristol found improvements in anxiety levels and in feelings about general health and quality of life. A study of a scheme in Rotherham found reductions in NHS use in terms of accident and emergency attendance, outpatient appointments and inpatient admissions. Cartrefi Conwy runs several projects empowering and enabling older tenants to take control of their lives, not letting their age or anything else affect them, their independence or quality of life. In Lancashire, the Green Dreams social enterprise, set up by a local GP, provides community based solutions to unemployment, isolation and reduced quality of life. Independent evaluation by Lancaster University found mental and physical health improvements, reduced GP appointments and many patients returning to work. Around 40 GPs are now referring into that scheme.The Co-production Network for Wales highlights time credits social prescribing as a powerful tool for encouraging the hard to engage or socially isolated in activity that might have a health, well-being or family reconnection impact and earns them time credits. Co-production Wales has highlighted the upcoming 8 June presentation by the chief executive of Interlink RCT—Rhondda Cynon Taf—connecting individuals, communities and organisations at a strength-based practice study group. As he says, patients are being referred from GP surgeries through social prescribing and through social care settings, often called community co-ordination or local area co-ordination. He adds, however, that many of the resources available are not directed at what matters most to people, where they need it, to improve their own health and well-being, but that this is particularly a problem in the most deprived areas, and that models that work in isolation that are not collaborative and are not connected or able to restore community provision will fail to tackle gaps and will be limited in scope and effectiveness.Five years ago, I heard Western Australia’s inspirational mental health commissioner speaking at a Co-production Wales conference in Cardiff. It was he who first launched local area co-ordination over a quarter of a century ago, making a real difference to both local people and professionals, who started to act and think differently. This shifted focus from people as passive recipients of social care to people who have gifts, assets and contributions in inclusive communities. Volunteer-run walking schemes supported by Let’s Walk Cymru, such as Troedio Clwyd Walks, improve physical and mental well-being and tackle loneliness, saving NHS Wales money, but Welsh Government funding ends on 30 September, providing no assurance for the volunteers. The Welsh Government must provide continuity. After all, as the Chief Medical Officer for Wales states, the social prescribing approach can help the management of chronic conditions and decrease demand for health services—let’s make it happen.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for bringing forward this debate today, and I’m delighted to take part. I’m firmly of the opinion that social prescribing, particularly when it comes to mental health, can deliver real health benefits for Welsh patients, and UKIP will, therefore, be supporting the motion.As results from studies in Bristol and Rotherham have shown, social prescribing schemes can lead to a reduction in the use of NHS services, but, more importantly, lead to improvements in mental health and general well-being, improvements to quality of life and reduced levels of depression and anxiety.It’s the last point that I find the most encouraging. Rather than condemning patients will mental ill health to a life on antidepressants, which have been shown to have terrible side effects, social prescribing can be used to better effect.Social prescribing can also deliver cost savings to our NHS. Preliminary economic analysis of the Rotherham study found that the scheme could pay for itself within two years due to reducing reliance on NHS services. My only concern is that, for this to be truly effective, we need to pump significant investment into primary care. To be able to effectively deliver social prescribing, GPs need to be effectively resourced, giving them the time to be able to consider the whole person more consistently, and they need access to fully resourced community services to which to refer patients when appropriate. According to the Royal College of General Practitioners, the promotion of social prescribing ultimately needs to be managed carefully as it generates expectations of general practice to carry out non-health functions, which it has limited capacity to do. They also state that social prescribing schemes can certainly be beneficial to a patient’s overall health and well-being, as some pilots have shown. To be effective, there needs to be better integration between health and community services, so that GPs and our teams can signpost our patients most appropriately.As I’ve highlighted many times, our NHS is most effective when we have a true partnership between the public, private and third sectors. Social prescribing is such a partnership approach. If we consider and mitigate the additional burden that social prescribing places upon our GPs, I do firmly believe that it has the potential to deliver enormous benefit to Welsh patients. I therefore look forward to seeing further details of the social prescribing trials and hope the Cabinet Secretary can assure us that resulting social prescribing schemes will be properly resourced and not place additional burdens upon our already over-stretched GPs.It is clear that the traditional approach to mental health care is not working, particularly for our younger population who are facing new and varied challenges to their mental health. We need new ways of working, as the taking of a pill method appears to do more harm than good. So, social prescribing has a role to play in meeting this challenge and I look forward to working with the Welsh Government to deliver a Wales-wide approach that benefits patients and our GPs alike. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: I think we could all do with a bit of social prescribing today. I think it’s been a very difficult day for us all and a very sad day and anything to lift our spirits would help. But I would like to thank the health Secretary for bringing forward this proposal because I think it shows that there is an understanding that there’s more to health than just looking after the physical well-being of a patient. Jenny Rathbone has underlined the fact that one in four of us is likely to suffer some kind of mental health problems during our lifetime—. I think it’s very much the point about asking patients what matters rather than, ‘What is the matter?’ I’m very much of the view that I think we have to respect and treat the individual and the patient and not just the illness. My husband’s a GP and he’s been social prescribing for almost two decades, mostly referrals to sport centres. But I think it’s important that we develop this further, and I’d like to focus just a few words on the opportunities to use social prescribing in relation to the arts. Now, as the health Secretary is aware, we’ve established a cross-party arts and health group within the Assembly and I’m very keen on this. I was chair of the Live Music Now charity and it was incredible to watch the transformation that came in care homes when we sent expert musicians in to play and to really have an impact and to raise the spirits of the people in those care homes. I think the Welsh Government actually has a very good record in relation to how arts impact on health: 50 per cent of the revenue funded organisations subsidised by the Arts Council of Wales are related to health in some way. I look forward to welcoming the Cabinet Secretary to the next meeting of that cross-party group where we’ll be making a presentation to him and asking him to support the efforts to build a more robust evidence base to support arts and health in Wales. There is a huge amount of work, as I said, being undertaken already. The Welsh arts council is already in the process of collating the work that is already being done in Wales, and there needs to be, I think—

Angela Burns AC: Will you take an intervention?

Eluned Morgan AC: Sure.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you. I was just rather hoping that in your role as chair of that cross-party group, you might also perhaps look at the role of art and music therapy for younger people, because at the stage of their life where they are, they need a course correction very often. A lot of them are starting to walk down a poor mental health route for all sorts of reasons, and there is a lot of evidence out there that if you can catch them young enough, in their teens and in secondary school when they’re going through those kinds of issues, then actually it can help to bring them back before it becomes really hard to start rescuing people. And I’d be really grateful, and I’d like to join your cross-party group if your cross-party group would actually have a look at that as well, because it’s that whole principle of, ‘If we can catch them young and save them earlier, it helps them and it helps us.’

Eluned Morgan AC: I think that’s a really good point, and I’d like to invite you, perhaps, to come and address one of our meetings. I think that would be very, very useful because you’re quite right—if we catch them young, if we catch them early, the arts can be a great mechanism for turning people around. I think it’s also important to focus on older people. I think if we’ve got a lot of people now—you think about the massive increase that we’re going to see in people requiring residential care, that’s projected to rise by 82 per cent by 2035. So, we need to think about how we’re going to deal with that, but let’s think about how we’re going to give them the quality of life; it’s not just about parking these people—it’s about making sure that they have a good life. But I would like to finish by asking the Cabinet Secretary just one thing, and that is really about the budget. Now, I know that there’s £180,000 being earmarked for volunteer-led networks in relation to how we use this, but, actually, in the context of a £6 billion fund, how far do you think we can take this? This is quite innovative stuff. We do need to, I think, make sure it’s evidence based. But I just wonder if you could tell us: what are your ambitions here? It’s clearly early days on this, but I just wonder: could we really be a pioneer country, really setting out a marker for the world to follow?

Thank you very much, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport to reply to the debate—Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to start by thanking all Members who have contributed for their considered and constructive contributions. This isn’t an area where the Government has a hard-and-fast view on what work and must work. As I indicated, we’re looking at developing an evidence base based on examples of what already takes place in Wales, and the evidence of what works best. I think we’re really talking about appropriate prescribing. Sometimes, it may be that social prescribing is something to replace poor prescribing decisions by clinicians and, of course, we should always constructively review what clinicians do, but there are, of course, entirely appropriate reasons why people’s health will be treated by a form of medication prescription. This is about how we add to and potentially replace some of that in a way that is appropriate for the individual. If you like, picking up on what Eluned Morgan said, ‘What matters to you, not what is the matter with you’, and see how we empower people to take more ownership of their own choices, and then to give them those choice and how easy those choices often are, if only they’re pointed in the right direction and helped in that way. There was much in Eluned Morgan and Angela Burns’s contribution, even without the intervention that Angela made, where there was actually a lot of commonality: book prescriptions, art, music and sport, and the role that they have. There are a number of things we’re already doing with young people, both myself and the Cabinet Secretary for Education, where we have a number of things we’re doing in schools to help to try and support people and their resilience in the most general terms, and understanding what we can do to promote that general well-being for the child and their whole family, and to think about how that works. But I would not pretend that we have perfect answers. As you know in Government, there is rarely a day when there is a perfect answer, and if there is one I have yet to come across it myself. But we are thinking seriously about what we’re doing and, as I said, the pilot that we’re going to develop to start this year will be about building their own space. To go back to Eluned’s point about where the budget is, that very much depends on what the evidence tells us about both the cost of providing the service, but then of the impact of that service, and our broader challenge, if we’re speaking honestly and in a mature way, about how we shift the way in which we provide services with citizens, not to citizens, and actually how we make those choices different ones as well. So, the challenge is about how we gear this up to make that system-wide shift and change.Just going back to Angela Burns’s contribution, I’m happy to recognise your point about how you refer people into a service, and what that service is, because there will, of course, be occasions when that service comes from a medical professional. There may also be times when what we call social prescribing doesn’t necessarily get routed through a GP or a healthcare professional. But if it is about how you provide someone with a route to actually access support, resilience and advice to improve their general health and well-being—that’s why I don’t want to get too tied up on a definition, but I do recognise the King’s Fund definition is a useful place to start from—.Again, thinking about Dai Lloyd’s challenge about walking—those of us who have iPhones—other smartphones are available, of course—if we walk around with them, they have this handy thing on them that tells you how many steps they think you’re doing, how many flights of stairs you’ve had. I don’t always think it’s entirely reliable and I tell myself there are occasions where I’ve done more walking when my phone’s been sat on a desk—but this job is difficult and politicians are often very poor examples of doing what we say others should do. At election time, we almost all get our 10,000 steps in, but in a normal day otherwise, it’s actually really quite difficult—but it’s something for us about how we take time to do things for ourselves as well.Then we had Jenny’s contribution and, in particular, I’m pleased to hear you mention the frequent attenders work that’s often there about not saying that frequent attenders don’t have health and well-being needs, but their needs are being met or dealt with inappropriately in going to the wrong place for the wrong care at the wrong time. That point is about how you provide people with a route to understand what their needs are and how they’re then met appropriately. Often, that is about directing them to other services or towards what they can do for themselves. I’m particularly pleased that you highlighted the cross-Government challenge that we have. Good health and well-being is not just an issue for the health service, it is absolutely an issue that goes into education, that goes into housing, it goes into the economy—virtually every area covered in ministerial portfolios. Also, thinking back to my previous life, when I was an employment lawyer, and about the links between health, well-being and work—. Finally, in terms of some of the other points made by Mark Isherwood and Caroline, we recognise, as I said earlier, the broader benefits of this approach and in particular the importance of the third and independent sectors in helping us to get this right. So, I’m really pleased about the constructive debate that we’ve had. I look forward to developing our approach to social prescribing in Wales and to further raise awareness of the health and social benefits that it can bring. I ask Members to support the motion and the amendments and I look forward to reporting back to Members in due course on the work that we will undertake in the pilot and developing the approach here in Wales.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

And so the proposal is to agree the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6314 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes that social prescribing is an important form of intervention that is already used across Wales;2. Considers priorities for the further promotion of social prescribing across Wales; and3. Notes Welsh Government commitments to trial a national approach to social prescribing linked to mental health.4. Notes the Kings Fund definition of social prescribing.

Does any Member object? Therefore, that motion, as amended, is agreed.

Motion NDM6314 as amended agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

That brings today’s proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 16:37.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Nick Ramsay: Will the First Minister make a statement on his economic priorities for south-east Wales?

Mark Drakeford: To invest in skills, infrastructure and supporting business growth.

Simon Thomas: What income tax rate does the First Minister expect people in Wales who earn over £80,000 a year to pay from April 2019 onwards?

Mark Drakeford: I have made clear there will be no rise in the Welsh rates of income tax during the lifetime of this Assembly.  Any change to the reserved part of income tax would be a matter for the next UK Government.

Neil Hamilton: Will the First Minister make a statement on the process for assessing proposals for new railway stations in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Despite our calls for the devolution of funding for rail infrastructure, responsibility remains with the UK Government. We have however developed a methodology to accelerate development work of Welsh projects so when funding opportunities occur projects are at a more advanced stage to be submitted for consideration.